Talk:Complex Template Working Copy

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I have made some suggestions for improvement, notably using icons (with mouseover text) instead of text. I have also created a proposed layout for the rats (using tables), while leaving the current presentation (using lists) intact for comparison. Of course these are just suggestions, feel free to change it as you see fit! Noemie Belacqua 12:43, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

NPC table

Table is nice, tho frigates and destroyers, cruisers and battlecruisers have the same icon, so there must be text until CCP. So going to tinker it. Lenai Chelien (talk) 03:08, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

That's a good point - there is strategy in whether to shoot the cruiser or the battlecruiser first, and that shouldn't be hidden in hover text. I also think that we should note whether a rat is elite (Arch-, Dire-, Loyal- etc). I've played around with various ways of presenting it, and I think that a different text color is the best way. Let me know what you think! Noemie Belacqua 11:23, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Impressive! Lenai Chelien (talk) 22:02, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Also there is bunch of multiple trigger and nobody wants to read hovering text. I've done that in different way in Gurista_Outpost. You can check it out. Lenai Chelien (talk) 03:43, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, that looks good. I would suggest putting the information about how to clear a pocket/trigger waves etc in the header text (like you did for Guristas Outpost), but keep the "trigger" icon. Especially for the high-level sites with a ton of different rats, it becomes hard to immediately identify the triggers,
Well, that's good, yet with multiple triggers person must use refs to check what going there. I imagine something like algorithm map which would show what goes after particular ship, but it would be heavy and questionable of usability. Variant with attaching X-mark to the name is ok for me. Lenai Chelien (talk) 22:02, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
I haven't had that much experience in running high-level combat sites. I skimmed over a few of the site descriptions on the EVE wiki - when you talk about "multiple triggers", do you mean something like Serpentis Phi-Outpost, where you can either loot a can to unlock an acceleration gate, or destroy all the enemies? In that case, I would certainly explain that via text, and keep the "trigger" icon where it's appropriate. Or did you have a better example in mind for "multiple triggers"? Noemie Belacqua 16:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
There are multiple examples of situation in which shooting different trigger will trigger different wave. For example, attacking bunker will spawn defenders wave, attacking last destroyer will spawn wave 2 and attacking gate will trigger wave which can be avoided. All the faction watches are best examples - this one Serpentis_Watch (EVElopedia link). Lenai Chelien (talk) 15:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Also there is situations in which there are excalation trigger and next wave trigger which is also painful. Lenai Chelien (talk) 16:01, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
That's very useful, thanks! I don't think we'll be able to (or want to) come up with an iron-clad formatting for every possible combination. The best we can do is give the page authors the tools to present the information as clearly as possible. I have come up with some suggestions - including some header text for the pockets (giving an overview of what's there), and either putting the trigger/escalation info in the tooltip or as a footnote under the table (both can work, IMO). Noemie Belacqua 17:13, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Very well done, sir! Lenai Chelien (talk) 16:59, 11 November 2014 (CST)

Also EVElopedia NPC table is still easier to read and navigate around. We need to fix our template, yet IDK how. Maybe that is general wiki issue with colors and not-fixed width. Lenai Chelien (talk) 04:17, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Let's reduce the number of colums - for ships, I would get rid of the "trigger" column, and just put the symbol next to the ship name. I would keep hover text for loot - my idea was to put the info a pilot needs while running the site in plain text (or obvious icons), but put the less-time-critial information (like what wrecks or structures to loot) into hover text to avoid cluttering up the page too much. Noemie Belacqua 11:23, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Deadspace drop is the info that pilot want. If being even more particular the only thing pilot want from page is how much, which size ships, what is the trigger for escalation or commander and what loot he can get out what. In current system that cargo container icon is the same for loot from structures (which is mostly trash trade goods, ammo, meta 4 modules) and for loot from commanders (which is mostly the same, except there could be shinies). Lenai Chelien (talk) 22:02, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
In that case, let's only explicitly mention shiny loot (overseer effects, faction modules, T2 salvage), and don't list "boring" loot. If you're running the site and taking notes, you can add the (approximate) total value of the site (bounties + loot + salvage), but we won't go to the trouble of manually listing "boring" loot per structure/rat. Noemie Belacqua 16:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Can be done this way, yes. Glad we can find the point. Lenai Chelien (talk) 15:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

BTW there is a problem with tons of variations of the same frigate. Most hurtful in Rogue Drone complexes. Wouldn't it be better to provide only 2-3 variations of them like this: Decimator/Devilfish/Render/... Alvi? Lenai Chelien (talk) 15:58, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Also there is situation then only one of the variated NPC use EWar. Example: in Gurista_Vigil, Room 2, Wave 4 - one of Commander Cruisers which can spawn in Dread Guristas Killer which jams. Others are not. We can provide that like:
0-1 x Dread Guristas Silencer/Ascriber
0-1 x Dread Guristas Killer - Jams
Or find the better way to do it. Lenai Chelien (talk) 23:39, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I think your suggestions are the best way to go. We can play around with rowspan cells, but let's keep it simple (I put an example into "third pocket" on the page). Noemie Belacqua 17:13, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I have also made the "text in local chat" boxes optionally collapsible. I think this is information which doesn't need to be immediately visible, but can be handy to figure out what pocket one is in. Noemie Belacqua 17:13, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Also, I have split the loot table into a "summary" table and a separate (collapsed) table where explorers can write down what they encountered in the site. That way, a reader can get a brief overview of what kind of loot is usually found, or drill down to see what specific modules have dropped in the past. Noemie Belacqua 17:13, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Good idea, the only thing to notice - I hope it wont be jammed by same rows from players filling it. Lenai Chelien (talk) 16:59, 11 November 2014 (CST)

It feels bad with those brackets, wouldn't it be better to remove them completely? Lenai Chelien (talk) 09:54, 26 November 2014 (CST)

Removed :) Noemie Belacqua 01:58, 27 November 2014 (CST)

Finalizing brainstorm

Page seems to be good for me. Can we finalize work on this one? We still need good exploration category navigation to add in footer, but thats task not for this page. Lenai Chelien (talk) 20:54, 11 November 2014 (CST)

I agree, the basics of brainstorming seems to be done. Personally, I believe the next step would be cleanup (i.e. removing duplicate methods for displaying the same thing), finalizing the basic layout, then moving on to working on making the whole thing as user friendly as possible via templates to simplify what the user has to enter manually.
Things in my real life got REALLY busy really suddenly, hence my not doing much more on this collaborative page (other than the site details box I made). Things are looking like I will have some more time again soon to get back into this project and help some more.
I think we're nearly done; I have documented the templates and streamlined the parameters. I don't think it's worth the effort to create even more templates (eg for the structures tables), as once the complex pages are created, most editors won't need to use them (what do you think about this?). The "last" task I see is to convert Complex_Template_Working_Copy into a guideline about how to structure a new complex page. It would probably be best to have a "skeleton" page which an editor could use to start a new complex page. Noemie Belacqua 04:35, 26 November 2014 (CST)
I personally think that we need template for structures as well - typing 20-40 characters of wiki tables or just some rows? I would take second choice. (yet I was too lazy so didn't create them ATM.) Lenai Chelien (talk) 09:48, 26 November 2014 (CST)
Yes, it would be ok to have some guidelines and skeleton at Complex_Template_Working_Copy. I personally already have mine in notepad but it's core one without that much info yet I can provide it. Lenai Chelien (talk) 09:48, 26 November 2014 (CST)