Logistics 103: Carriers, Triage, Advanced Tactics

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This is a deprecated class syllabus, intended as historical record for the teaching department.

Creating syllabi is no longer our process for new classes, and no classes in the syllabus library are considered current. They are here for historical purposes only, as well as an optional starting point for designing new classes. Please do not assume any of the classes you find here have slides, or have even been taught for many years. If you do use information in a syllabus, ensure that you have brought it up to date with contemporary EVE.

This syllabus was reviewed and is up-to-date (Jordanna Bauer - Nov 2015)

Non-faculty: notify the Teaching Department and add {{Update}} if this information is out-dated.


Class Information

This is a syllabus for a class provided by EVE University. This section contains information about this class and its contents. General Information includes materials to create a proper class listing on the EVE University forum. Additional resources and teaching tips are listed under Notes for the Teacher.

General Information

Illustration link for class description on the Eve University forum: http://xxx.jpg

The purpose of this class is to delve deeper into the the role of logistics and support. Its main focus is the application of practical skills covered in the previous two classes and expanding that knowledge to carriers.

  • Duration: 60-120 minutes, 30+ minute practical component at instructor's leisure.
  • Location: instructor's choice.

Class contents:

  • Spider tanking
  • Refitting in combat
  • Pantheon carriers
  • Introduction to triage
  • Triage tactics
  • Optional practical exercise (instructor's leisure).

Student requirements:

  • Mumble registration and access - make sure you have Mumble sorted out and operational well before the class begins. Use this guide for set-up.
  • Access to the Lecture.E-UNI in-game chat channel

Additional information: This class is primarily lecture-delivered in the classroom channel in Mumble, followed by Q&A. An optional practical exercise may follow.

Notes for the Teacher

Required materials:

  • Lecture.E-UNI chat channel, to receive questions and post relevant links.

Important: this class is the third in a series of classes dealing with logistics ships. The Logistics 101: Introduction to Logistics class covers all of the basics of logistics (skills, the ships, fitting considerations), while the Logistics 102: Logistics and Fleets class covers the basics of operating within a fleet (energy chains, broadcasts) and practical skills (kiting, signature tanking, survival). This class is focused on applying knowledge and skills gained from the first two classes to advanced situations and carriers. The 101/102 classes are not required for students to take this class, but instructors should be comfortable with the material in both classes so as to not repeat information. In any case, an advanced knowledge of logistics is recommended for students.

Tips and suggestions for lecturers are dispersed throughout the material. Look out for the "Note to instructor" sections.

Class Contents

Introduction

  • Welcome your students to the class and thank them for coming. Be sure to mention the class name (Logistics 103: Carriers, Triage, Advanced Tactics).
  • Introduce yourself. Be sure to mention your relevant experience in flying logistics and/or your general background.
  • Explain the course objective:
    • "The objective of this class is to round out the lessons taught in the other two logistics classes. In 101 we talked about the basics of what it means to fly logistics, and in 102 we learned about fleet tactics and working while under fire. This has set the stage for this lecture, which will top off the experience by talking about the ultimate support role: the triage carrier."
  • Outline the rules for your class:
    • "We have a few ground rules for this class:
      • Please put your Mumble settings on "Push to Talk" if you have not already done so.
      • Feel free to type any questions in the Class.E-UNI chat channel as we proceed - I will try to answer your questions as they come during the class. [At the end of my lecture, we'll open Mumble for any further questions or general discussion.]
      • You should be [docked up safely in a station [in Aldrat if you intend to participate in the practical exercise], or located...] "

Review

Use this section to do a basic review of the information covered in Logistics 102. Be careful that you do not dedicate too much time here, as the students should be ready for new material, not a repeat of the first two classes. Consider opening up the floor to questions, but be mindful of the time.

Things to review:

  • The fleet interface
    • The watch list
    • Broadcasts
  • Energy transfer mechanics
    • Pairing up
    • Transfer chains
  • Electronic warfare, countermeasures, and defensive tactics
    • ECM
    • Sensor dampening
    • Energy neutralization
  • Capacitor management

Spider tanking

Use this section of the lecture to discuss spider tanking. Be sure to explain each individual concept in detail, as the skills discussed here build the framework for the rest of the lecture topics.

General concepts

  • Spider tanking is an infinitely-scalable fleet concept that combines energy transfer chains, large resist buffers, and remote repairing. It is the lynchpin of several advanced fleet strategies, and is especially common in capital warfare.
  • The main idea of spider tanking is using remote assistance modules on every ship in a fleet and linking them together, creating a "spider web" of energy transfers and remote repairs between them.
  • Spider tanking relies on high resists and strong buffer, as well as the ability to fit utility high slots, even for ships that do not have bonuses to energy or shield/armor transfers. It is most commonly seen in tech III, battleship, and carrier/supercarrier fleets, but can be applied to any ship type.
  • Spider tanking is viable in both PvE and PvP environments.
The energy chain
  • Spider tanking requires capacitor stability at its core, especially in fleet doctrines that may use remote repairers on unbonused ships, such as remote repair battleships.
  • Due to the high cost of running unbonused capacitor transmitters, it is recommended that all fleet members have Capacitor Emission Systems IV or V in order to maximize energy output.
  • The energy chain in a spider tank setup needs to be strong and resistant to disruption. Double-linked pairs/chains are highly recommended, but single link chains or pairs are viable in some situations.
  • Energy chains can be organized the same as any logistics squad.
Required tank
  • Remote repair modules are high slot modules, which allows ships to dedicate more of their medium or low slots to tank, depending on if the doctrine is shield or armor.
  • Spider tank setups require every ship in the chain to be tanked for relatively high resists and buffer. This minimizes incoming damage and therefore maximizes the efficiency of repair modules, as each point of shield/armor repaired is worth more in terms of effective hit points as resists get higher.
    • Note to instructor: take a few minutes to make sure that everyone understands this concept, but do not allow the class to get bogged down with too much math; a simple example is all that is necessary. If you cannot explain this concept in complete confidence, you should reconsider teaching this course.
  • Author's note: add example with math here when PowerPoint is complete.
  • With a ship that is bonused for armor/shield resists, such as the Archon (Amarr carrier) or the Chimera (Caldari carrier), a resist profile of 75%-80% in all four categories is easily attainable and expected.
  • Capital ships generally do not require extra buffer, but tech III, battleship, and other doctrines utilizing a spider tank should be equipped with armor plates or shield extenders for additional health.
Remote repair modules
  • Spider tank doctrines generally do not use dedicated logistics. Instead, every member of the fleet (aside from the support) has remote repair modules in their high slots.
  • This is especially useful for ships with drone bonuses, as they can dedicate their high slots to fleet logistics without sacrificing gun damage. Ships with utility high slots (ie: more high slots than turret slots) are able to use the required modules along with guns.
  • When a member of the fleet is damaged, all other ships in the fleet are able to offer remote assistance in the form of repairs.

Pros and cons

Pros:

  • Doctrines, particularly remote battleship, are easier to get into. No tech II logistics specialization is required.
  • Provides less obvious targets for enemy fleets, as dedicated logistics are generally not used.
  • Can surprise enemy fleets who may not be expecting you to have logistics capabilities. Allows you to tank and engage larger fleets with a group as small as two or three.
  • Excellent way to make use of alts when multiboxing.

Cons:

  • Carrier and tech III doctrines are training-intensive and cost-prohibitive to newer players.
  • Doctrines are extremely specialized and may not be appropriate for certain engagements.
  • Capacitor transmitters and remote repair modules are not bonused for range outside of support/logistics ships and carriers, so remote repair doctines using unbonused ships require every ship to be in range of every other ship.

Example setups

Use this section to give a brief overview of some sample doctrines/setups that utilize spider tanking. Exact fittings are not required and are outside of the general scope of this class. Instead, highlight the general usage scenarios for each sample doctrine, as well as their general characteristics. The following examples are provided in order to showcase a wide variety of setups, but feel free to provide your own.

Remote repair drone assist Ishtars

General characteristics:

  • Fast with a small signature radius to aid with tanking.
  • Tech II resistances.
  • Plenty of high slots for remote assistance.
  • Drone bonuses for damage without high slots.

Applications:

  • Small gang PvP.
  • Missions.
  • Complexes.
"Repair ball" tech IIIs

General characteristics:

  • Extremely well-tanked.
  • High resistances.
  • Large DPS potential.
  • Expensive.

Applications:

  • PvP.
  • Sleeper sites.
Remote repair battleships

General characteristics:

  • Cheap, easy to replace, easy to train.
  • Versatile; compatible with both gun-bonused and drone battleships.
  • Tech I resists, large signature radius.

Applications:

  • PvP.
  • Missions.
"Pantheon" and "slowcat" carriers

General characteristics:

  • Extremely large EHP pools
  • Ability to refit in combat.
  • Extremely versatile with the right modules handy.
  • Very training intensive.

Applications:

  • Large fleet/capital warfare.

Carriers

At this point, take a break from discussing tactics in order to introduce carriers. Remember that this class is aimed at the logistics capabilites of carriers, so don't go into too much detail; a simple overview of the different carriers and their important bonuses is fine.

General characteristics

  • Carriers have large drone bays and the ability to field drones and fighters. They can field one additional drone or fighter per level of the carrier skill. Note to instructor: the mechanics of fighters are outside of the scope of this class.
  • Able to fit warfare links, the triage module, and capital-sized modules/rigs.
  • Carriers can dock in stations, and (as of the Nov 2014 Phoebe update) can jump through gates (as long as the gates do not lead to HighSec space). They can also navigate the galaxy by using a jump drive that can lock onto cynosural beacons and jump directly to them. Using a jump drive requires isotopes as fuel (helium, nitrogen, oxygen, and hydrogen for Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, and Minmatar, respectively).
  • Every carrier has a large personal cargo bay (~800 m3), as well as a fleet hangar (10,000 m3) for extra storage, and a fuel bay (3,000 m3). They also have a ship maintenance bay that can only hold assembled ships (1,000,000 m3).
  • The presence of the fleet hangar and maintenance bay allows fleet members to refit modules and even dock/switch ships within a carrier.
  • Carriers are susceptible to all forms of electronic warfare.

The ships

Archon (Amarr):

  • Carrier bonus to capital remote armor repair and capacitor transmitter range, as well as armor resistances.

Chimera (Caldari):

  • Carrier bonus to capital remote shield booster and capacitor transmitter range, as well as shield resistances.

Thanatos (Gallente):

  • Carrier bonus to capital remote armor repairer and remote shield booster range, as well as fighter damage.

Nidhoggur (Minmatar):

  • Carrier bonus to capital remote armor repairer and remote shield booster range, as well as capital remote armor repair and shield boost amount.

Shared role bonus:

  • Can deploy one additional drone or fighter per level.
  • 200% bonus to fighter control range.
  • Able to fit warfare link modules.
  • Able to fit triage modules.

Getting into carriers

Use this section of the class to go over skills in detail. There are a lot of support skills that play into the performance of carriers, so take your time to touch on all of them. Note to instructor: the skills listed here will not include prerequisite skills unless the prerequisite skills also require a large training investment (ie: level V). If you link the skills/skillbooks themselves into the channel, students will be able to see which prerequisites they may also need. Remember not to bog them down with too much information just yet! Be sure to tell them to look at the skillbooks to see where they currently stand in terms of prerequisites.

Capital skills

This section should introduce skills that are capital-exclusive and may be brand new to pilots who have not yet trained into capital ships. The other sections will cover minimum and recommended skills. Be sure to touch on each skill and what they do, but be brief.

Navigation skills

  • Advanced Spaceship Command: baseline skill for piloting capital ships. Increases maneuverability.
  • Capital Ships: second baseline skill for piloting capital ships. Further increases maneuverability.
  • Jump Drive Operation: allows the use of jump drives, which capital ships use to get between systems. Reduces the capacitor need for making a jump (70% at level V).
  • Jump Drive Calibration: increases the range of a capital ship's jump capabilities.
  • Jump Fuel Conservation: reduces the amount of fuel used by a capital ship's jump drive.

Local tank skills

  • Capital Shield Operation: allows the operation of capital-sized shield boosters and reduces their capacitor usage.
  • Capital Repair Systems: allows the operation of capital-sized armor repairers and reduces their duration.

Remote assistance skills

  • Capital Shield Emission Systems: allows the use of capital-sized remote shield boosters and reduces their capacitor usage.
  • Capital Remote Armor Repair Systems: allows the use of capital-sized remote armor repairers and reduces their capacitor usage.
  • Capital Capacitor Emission Systems: allows the use of capital-sized capacitor transmitters and reduces their capacitor usage.

Unique module skill

  • Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration: allows the operation of the triage logistics module and reduces its fuel (strontium clathrates) usage per activation.
  • Note to instructor: be sure to mention that you will be going over the triage module in more detail later in the lecture, as this section of the lecture should be focused on skills. Ask students to hold their questions regarding the module until after its discussion.

Minimum skills

The skills listed here are the minimum skills required to sit in a carrier and use capital-sized modules.

Carriers

  • Racial Carrier I (suggested level: IV)
    • Jump Drive Calibration III
      • Navigation V
      • Science V
      • Warp Drive Operation V
    • Drone Interfacing V
      • Drones V
    • Racial Battleship III
    • Capital Ships IV
      • Advanced Spaceship Command V
    • Jump Fuel Conservation IV

Capital Armor Repairers

  • Capital Repair Systems I (suggested level: IV/V)
    • Mechanics V
    • Repair Systems V
    • Hull Upgrades V

Capital Shield Boosters

  • Capital Shield Operation I (suggested level: IV/V)
    • Shield Operation V
    • Shield Management V
    • Power Grid Management V

Capital Remote Shield Boosters

  • Capital Shield Emission Systems I (suggested level: IV/V)
    • Power Grid Management V
    • Shield Emission Systems V

Capital Remote Armor Repairers

  • Capital Remote Armor Repair Systems I (suggested level: IV/V)
    • Remote Armor Repair Systems V

Capital Remote Capacitor Transmitters

  • Capital Capacitor Emission Systems I (suggested level: IV/V)
    • Power Grid Management V
    • Capacitor Emission Systems V

Triage Modules

  • Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration I (suggested level: V in order to use tech II triage)
    • Logistics V

Recommended skills

This section of the lecture should be viewed as very general and is meant to simply highlight the variety of skills that apply to carrier piloting. Do not spend too much time here, as students are likely to be far off from carriers anyway. The goal is to give students enough information so that they can make a proper skill plan when the time comes.

Core skills
  • Fitting skills should be maxed (Power Grid Management, CPU Management).
  • Secondary fitting skills should be high enough to use all tech II modules (Energy Grid Upgrades, Electronics Upgrades).
  • Capacitor skills should be maxed (Capacitor Management, Capacitor Systems Management).
  • Rigging skills should be high enough to allow the option for tech II rigs (ie: level IV) and eventually maxed when using rigs with drawbacks (ie: trimarks).
Tanking skills
  • Core tank skills should be maxed (Shield Management, Hull Upgrades, Mechanics, Shield Operation).
  • Compensation skills should be maxed (Armor Compensation, Shield Compensation).
  • Tactical Shield Manipulation can be left at IV, but this is up for debate. Level IV can be more beneficial because of how shield regeneration works.
  • Local repair skills should be at at IV or V.
Targeting Skills
  • Target Management should be maxed. Advanced Targeting Management is also important because carriers have increased targeting capabilities in triage (suggested level: IV).
  • Long Range Targeting and Signature Analysis should be maxed.
  • The appropriate racial Sensor Compensation skills should be maxed, but this is less important for triage pilots, as they cannot be jammed.
Navigation skills
  • Skills that affect agility (Advanced Spaceship Command, Evasive Maneuvering, Capital Ships, in order of importance) should be maxed when possible, although the benefits can be marginal.
  • Jump Drive Calibration dictates how far a capital ship can travel in a single jump and should be maxed as soon as possible.
  • Acceleration Control is situationally important for capital ships and should be maxed when possible.
Drone skills
  • Carrier pilots should have close to maximum level in all drone support skills, however, drone/fighter skills can be neglected by dedicated logistics/triage pilots, as drones and fighters cannot be used when in triage mode. However, do not discount the fact that a triage carrier doesn't always have to be in triage mode, and being able to contribute DPS may be an asset.
  • The ability to use tech II sentry drones is extremely important as of this writing. Fighters are not used very often in the current metagame.
Support/defensive/utility skills
  • Thermodynamics should be maxed to allow for maximum module efficiency.
    • Nanite Operation and Nanite Interfacing should be maxed where possible.
  • Neural enhancement and drug skills should be close to max (Cybernetics, Biology, Neurotoxin Control, Neurotoxin Recovery).
  • Energy Pulse Weapons should be maxed for defensive smart bomb usage.
  • Leadership skills are required for warfare links, but warfare links are generally not used by carrier pilots as of this writing.

Physical logistics: refitting in combat

This section of the lecture is the final piece of information required to move forward into actual tactics. Take this time to explain the merits of being able to refit in space, as it is the enabling feature in the tactics to be discussed.

  • One of the major advantages that carriers bring in terms of physical logistics is the ability for fleet members to refit their ships outside of stations.
  • Fleet members can be given access to a carrier's hangar and will be able to refit when within 2,500m. In a normal situation, modules cannot be fit while in space, and onlining a module in space will empty the ship's capacitor.
  • The ability to refit in space and in combat gives a potential advantage to fleets with carrier support, as versatile ships (such as battleships) have the option to switch between weapon systems on the fly. It also gives the option for fleet members to do things like change their resist profiles in the fly (ie: changing to EM/thermal hardeners against an Amarr fleet).

Potential fleet uses

  • Switching between guns, smartbombs, energy neutralizers, etc.
  • Refitting for capacitor stability when neutralized.
  • Changing resist profiles.
  • Equipping or changing a propulsion module (afterburner, microwarpdrive).
  • Equipping additional tackle (warp scramblers/disruptors, stasis webifiers).
  • Swapping racial jammers on electronic warfare ships.
  • Equipping a cynosural field generator to call for backup.
  • Carriers and other capital ships are able to refit in space as well, but only when in range of a carrier. A carrier cannot refit off of itself.
Common refitting tactics
  • Refitting capacitor rechargers/boosters to recharge capacitor at an extreme rate.
  • Refitting for maximum resistances in order to tank an enemy fleet. This can allow capital ships to resist a titan's doomsday device in some cases.
  • Equipping Reinforced Bulkheads and a Damage Control II when going into structure, as capital ships have an enormous amount of structure hit points.
  • Switching between a logistics and combat role (carriers).
  • Equipping warp disruption to surprise smaller ships.
  • Equipping a propulsion module to burn out of bubbles or into a POS shield.
  • Equipping warp core stabilizers to escape tackle.
  • Equipping utility modules depending on the situation (sensor boosters, capacitor batteries, damage modules, etc.).
  • Due to the large EHP buffers and capacitor pools associated with capital ships, refitting in combat is extremely effective at extending their survivability. This allows carriers especially to be extremely versatile and cover an enormous array of roles during a single fight if required.

Triage carriers

This section of the lecture should be used to explain the triage module, the general characteristics of flying triage, and fitting considerations. Specific tactics will be covered afterward.

The triage module

Although it has already been mentioned, take some time to explain the triage module in as much depth as possible. Be sure to link the module and explain the capabilities that it affords carriers over regular logistics. Note to instructor: consider taking a few minutes to answer questions regarding carriers in triage once you have adequately explained the module.

  • The triage module is unique and can only be used by carriers. It is designed to enhance the carrier's defensive and logistical capabilities.
  • To activate the triage module, a carrier must have Strontium Clathrates in its fuel bay. The Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration skill dictates how much fuel is required per activation.
  • The triage module cycles for five minutes. This time cannot be reduced or increased. It is recommended that triage pilots change the module to "auto-repeat off" or otherwise disable the module so it does not automatically cycle again.
  • A carrier in triage is immune to almost all remote effects, both friendly and hostile. It cannot be warp scrambled, disrupted, jammed, or have its sensors dampened. It cannot be repaired or have its capacitor boosted remotely. However, a triage carrier is still susceptible to all forms of damage and can have its capacitor neutralized.
    • Note: you can test if a hostile carrier is in triage by attempting to use remote modules on it (ie: warp scrambler). An error message will display.
  • Using the triage module disables all forms of movement, including the jump drive. The triage module also increases the carrier's mass, making it harder to bump.
  • When active, the triage module significantly increases the capabilities of capital-sized local/remote repairers/boosters and capacitor transmitters. This allows a triage carrier to tank an enormous amount of damage while providing logistics support to its fleet.
  • Being in triage reduces the capacitor used by remote assistance modules, but also makes them cycle faster, increasing overall capacitor consumption slightly. The triage module increases sensor resolution (and therefore targeting speed) by an enormous amount.
  • Triage increases targeting range and the total number of active targets allowed. The number of total targets is still limited by the pilot's skills.
  • A carrier in triage cannot deploy drones and will automatically disconnect from any active drones when entering a cycle.

Fitting considerations

  • Due to the fact that triage carriers cannot be remotely assisted, a triage carrier must be completely self-sufficient. The goal of a triage carrier is to survive the five minute triage cycle so it can then have its capacitor/tank refilled before entering a new cycle, all while providing remote assistance to its fleet. This is not always a possibility depending on fleet composition.
  • Triage carriers are extremely reliant on capacitor. It is difficult/impossible to make a triage fit that is both stable and able to tank large amounts of damage. Capacitor rigs (ie: Capacitor Control Circuits), Capacitor Rechargers (medium slots), and Capacitor Power Relays/Capacitor Flux Coils (low slots) used in conjunction is not uncommon.
  • The high slot layout generally involves a Triage Module, a Capital Remote Capacitor Transmitter, and Capital Remote Shield Boosters/Armor Repairers.
  • In order to take full advantage of the triage bonuses, a triage carrier may have up to two Capital Shield Boosters/Capital Armor Repairers. High resistances and strong capacitor recharge will allow a triage carrier to sustain an immense local tank.

Tactics

Now that you have explained the concept of triage and the module itself, use this time to talk about tactics. Keep in mind that this information is subject to change/evolve as the game is updated, so general information is preferable to specifics.

Solo triage

  • Solo triage is a thankless and dangerous job. As the sole triage carrier in a fleet, you are likely to be ordered as the primary and neutralized.
  • In many cases, solo triage may be considered as "suicide triage", as the ship may have a high probability of not surviving its triage cycle. Since carriers in triage cannot move or jump, they are extremely susceptible to being targeted by a titan's doomsday device.
  • When solo, a triage pilot will not be able to refit modules during combat, as they are the only carrier on field.
  • Capacitor management is a priority. This means watching repair cycles and canceling them so as to avoid over-repairing. It may also be beneficial to hold off on self-repairs, as carriers generally have enough buffer that incoming damage may not be an issue that requires their immediate attention.
  • Triage pilots should always carry Exile/Blue Pill and Mindflood boosters. Exile/Blue Pill increases local repair amounts (but can reduce overall hit points and capacitor capacity), and Mindflood increases the capabilities of their capacitor (while having a chance to reduce repair amounts).

Duo/group triage

  • The goal of group triage is to only have one carrier or part of the group in triage at any given time. This allows the non-triaged carriers to be repaired by the triage carriers, removing the need for a strong local tank and increasing capacitor efficiency. The triage carriers can also fill the capacitor of the non-triaged carriers, maintaining a high level of stability at all times.
  • Triage carriers can take advantage of the ability to refit off of other carriers during combat. When one of the carriers is primaried by the enemy fleet, that carrier then has the option to refit into a full tank fit in order to resist the incoming damage, which increases the EHP repaired by modules.
    • If a non-triage carrier is being primaried, the triage carrier has the option to trade its own tank for capacitor efficiency, since it is not being focus-fired. It can then continue providing repairs while regenerating capacitor.
    • If the triage carrier is being primaried, it can trade its capacitor stability by refitting a stronger tank, since it is not required to provide as much repair support to its fleet. In this case, the triage carrier is likely to run down its capacitor, but since there are other triage carriers on field, they can refill its capacitor to full once it exits its own triage cycle.
  • The act of tanking a fleet while waiting for your triage cycle to end is called "coasting out of triage".
  • As long as the enemy fleet does not have the DPS to break or cap out a "super tanked" triage carrier, the carriers can take turns entering and exiting triage without much hassle.
  • The danger in performing triage coasts is that it requires only one or part of the triage core to be in triage. If both/all of the carriers are forced to go into triage to maintain repairs, the incoming DPS may be too high. Thus, communication is the key to maintaining a proper setup, as the pilots will need to know who is in triage, when to go into triage themselves, and if the incoming damage is too high for them to sustain.

Class wrap-up

  • Questions.
  • Thank students for attending the class.
  • Ask for feedback on improving the class.

Practical exercise

  • Refitting exercise.
  • Live-fire/triage exercise where possible.

Bonus material

Please insert any links to helpful material relating to this subject here.