Turret damage: Difference between revisions

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[[Category:Guides]]

[[Category:Work in progress]]

{{Example|This page underwent a major update the ~~13th~~ august 2011.}}

{{Example|This page underwent a major update the 12th august 2011.}}

=Introduction=

This article ~~investigates~~ the To-Hit-Equation which is the fundament for all turret based ~~weapon~~ damage. Rather than ~~delving deeply into~~ the ~~math~~, the aim is to give the reader a general understanding of ~~how~~ the equation ~~works, and~~ find a golden limit for how far tracking and falloff can be pushed while still keeping a high DPS. It will also ~~describe~~ how the random damage distribution of turrets works.

This article takes a closer look at the To-Hit-Equation which is the fundament for all turret based damage dealing. Rather than focusing on the equation itself, the aim is to give the reader a general understanding of what comes out of the equation. This can be used to find a golden limit for how far tracking and falloff can be pushed while still keeping a high DPS. There will also be an explanation how the random damage distribution of turrets works, and why hard to hit targets are struck for less damage. As well as some guidelines for how damage modules and tracking modules can be compared if you know what kind of angular velocity the target has.

Additional information about turrets can also be found on http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turrets and tips and tricks for using turrets more effectively is at http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Gunnery_Guide

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Now lets look at the range part. Being inside optimal never incurs a hit penalty, so we must move out into falloff ranges too see any changes in the to-hit-equation's output values. Lets freeze everything apart from falloff. What we are left with is: a frozen number divided by Falloff.

Did you see what they had in common? In the tracking term, we now have ''something / Turret tracking'', in the range term we have ''something / Falloff''. In ~~each case~~ there is a value that is divided by the variable ~~of interest. Since both of them~~ are ~~calculated from 0~~.~~5 ^ (term), this~~ means that tracking and falloff ~~mathematically~~ behave in ~~exactly~~ the same way. If you understand how ~~one of them~~ works, you ~~have already understood the other. The variables and their meanings in each case are a little different~~, ~~but the outcome is the same way~~.

Did you see what they had in common? In the tracking term, we now have ''something / Turret tracking'', in the range term we have ''something / Falloff''. In both cases there is a value that is divided by the variable we are interested in. That means that tracking and falloff behave in the same way. So if you understand how falloff works, you also understand how tracking works, even if you haven't realized it yet.

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|}

A turret with a 100% hit chance will see a natural and unavoidable damage spread between 50% to 149% of its base damage for normal hits, and will always do exactly 300% of its base damage on perfect hits. A turret with a 75% hit chance will have a damage spread of 50%-124% on normal hits and do 300% on perfect hits, thus it can never do any excellent hits.

A turret with a 100% hit chance will see a natural and unavoidable damage spread between 50% to 149% of its base damage for normal hits, and will always do exactly 300% of its base damage on perfect hits. A turret with a 75% hit chance will have a damage spread of 50%-124% on normal hits and do 300% on perfect hits, thus it can never do any excellent hits because they are now misses.

'''Example:'''

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The true strength with the table and graphs below are not to calculate what your DPS might be in a given situation. But rather to see how much you can push your falloff and tracking while still maintaining a decent DPS output.

Now consider the following notable values.

*Below 0.33 parts into ... : the DPS loss is at most 10%, a very small effect, being at 0.33 or below means pretty much that you have nearly top performance, you are still in your sweet spot.

*Below 0.333 parts into ... : the DPS loss is at most 10%, a very small effect, being at 0.33 or below means pretty much that you have nearly top performance, you are still in your sweet spot.

*Above 0.50 parts into... : the DPS loss is now 22% or more and may start to become a problem, you can try manual piloting to rectify this unless you have a tactical reason for keeping the current conditions, for example a situation where your opponant have an even higher loss of DPS.

*Above 1.0 parts into... : at this point the DPS loss is 60% or more. Some damage is still better than no damage, but keep in mind that you have a pretty lousy performance under these circumstances.

Especially the 0.33 value is good to remember. Know your guns and know how far you can push them. If you want to maintain a high DPS, this is how deep you can go into either tracking or falloff (if you are pushing both use 0.25 instead). If you go outside it, your DPS will start dropping and if you go further in there is only a small increase in damage. This is kind of the golden limit that comes out from studying the To-Hit-Equation. Like all guidelines, this one comes with an exception too, see the next section for that.

Especially the 0.333 value is good to remember (one third of your tracking or falloff). Know your guns and know how far you can push them. If you want to maintain a high DPS, this is how deep you can go into either tracking or falloff (if you are pushing both use 0.25 instead). If you go outside it, your DPS will start dropping and if you go further in there is only a small increase in damage. This is kind of the golden limit that comes out from studying the To-Hit-Equation. Like all guidelines, this one comes with an exception too, see the next section for that.

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|-

|0.2|| 0.9727|| 0.9747|| -4.0%||

|-

|0.25|| 0.9576|| 0.9528|| -6.1%||

|-

|0.3|| 0.9395|| 0.9268|| -8.7%||

|-

|0.333|| 0.9260|| 0.9076|| -10.6%||

|-

|0.4|| 0.8950|| 0.8641|| -14.9%||

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|-

|0.8|| 0.6417|| 0.5454|| -46.3%||

|-

|0.848|| 0.6075|| 0.5072|| -50.0%||

|-

|0.9|| 0.5704|| 0.4672|| -54.0%||

|-

|1|| 0.5000|| 0.3951|| -61.1%||

|1.0|| 0.5000|| 0.3951|| -61.1%||

|-

|1.1|| 0.4323|| 0.3303|| -67.5%||

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|1.9|| 0.0819|| 0.0685|| -93.2%||

|-

|2|| 0.0625|| 0.0576|| -94.3%||

|2.0|| 0.0625|| 0.0576|| -94.3%||

|-

|2.1|| 0.0470|| 0.0492|| -95.2%||

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|-

|2.8|| 0.0044|| 0.0131|| -98.7%||

|-

|2.9|| 0.0029|| 0.0088|| -99.1%||

|-

|3.0|| 0.0020|| 0.0059|| -99.4%||

|}

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Instead of thinking about ''Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius'' as an expression, think of it as a single number that the Transversal Speed is multiplied with. This makes sense if you look at the equation. Now, if this number is 1, it has no effect at all and tracking works as normal. But if the number is higher than 1, this would have the same effect as if the Transversal Speed went up, which means it is harder to hit. And if the number is lower than 1, this would have the same effect as if the Transversal Speed went down, which means it is easier to hit.

If you know how many parts into tracking a certain ship is, and you want to adjust for the signature part too, you must multiply ''parts into tracking'' with ''Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius'' to get the ''true'' parts into tracking. There is no other way. This is not something that can be done in combat, ~~but~~ you can guess ~~at if it will be higher or lower and~~ then compensate ~~a bit for it~~.

If you know how many parts into tracking a certain ship is, and you want to adjust for the signature part too, you must multiply ''parts into tracking'' with ''Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius'' to get the ''true'' parts into tracking. There is no other way. This is not something that can be done in combat, mostly because you will not know the signature radius of your target. But you can use gut feeling and guess from what you see. Shields tanks means a bigger ship, armor tank a normal size. And then you compensate as you see fit.

To better illustrate this, consider the following examples:

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Webs:

The effect from a web is hard to predict, since its use can change both the transversal speed and the range between the ships. Experience and practice will be your best guide here. The drawback with webs is that they help your opponants tracking as well as your own.

The effect from a web is hard to predict, since its use can change both the transversal speed and the range between the ships. Experience and practice will be your best guide here. The drawback with webs is that they can help your opponants tracking as well as your own. The most important thing with a web is its tactical benefits, the fastest ship can control the range.

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=Answers to some questions=

==I heard that rails suck, is that true?==

Beam lasers have the highest DPS (damage per second) and artillery cannons have the highest damage per hit (per volley). Both of these things are valuable, especially in PvP. High DPS is goood because it makes tough ships die faster. A high damage per hit is also good because it can instantly kill a target (something that is important when the target has logistic support that repairs it). Railguns on the other hand have only the second best DPS and the worst damage per hit. The good things railguns have are the fastest firing speed and a slightly longer range than beam lasers.

One must also look at the ammo each type of turret use. Lasers use crystals, changing them is immediate and they never run out of ammo. Projectiles use various ammo types that deal different damage types, which makes it easier to match the damage with the target. The hybrid ammo on the other hand is stuck with the same two damage types (like lasers are) and have a reload time (like projectiles do), if one feel a little mean one could say that hybrid ammo combines the worst of the other two types.

Beam lasers and artillery cannons have drawbacks too of course. Generally speaking: The beam lasers uses a lot of capacitor energy and require immense amounts of power grid, they will only really work on Amarr ships. The artillery cannons also needs a lot of power grid and are designed to be used on ships with a bonus for projectil firing speed, otherwise it takes forever before they can shoot again. So for Gallente and Caldari ships, the railguns will still be the overall prefered pick. They still have the second best DPS, so they are not horrible.

==Do small targets take less damage from big guns?==

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**Modified base damage x 3 = 68.5

The collected data shows that the normal damage is distributed within 50%-149%. Since the first 1% unit is used for critical rolls, this means that the constant has to be 0.49.

The collected data shows that the normal damage is distributed within 50%-149%. Since the first 1% unit is used for critical rolls (this is most likely, if the last % unit was used additional calculations will be needed if the to it chance is less than 1%), this means that the constant has to be 0.49.

@@ Line 2: / Line 2: @@
 [[Category:Guides]]
 [[Category:Work in progress]]
-{{Example|This page underwent a major update the 13th august 2011.}}
+{{Example|This page underwent a major update the 12th august 2011.}}
 =Introduction=
-This article investigates the To-Hit-Equation which is the fundament for all turret based weapon damage. Rather than delving deeply into the math, the aim is to give the reader a general understanding of how the equation works, and find a golden limit for how far tracking and falloff can be pushed while still keeping a high DPS. It will also describe how the random damage distribution of turrets works.
+This article takes a closer look at the To-Hit-Equation which is the fundament for all turret based damage dealing. Rather than focusing on the equation itself, the aim is to give the reader a general understanding of what comes out of the equation. This can be used to find a golden limit for how far tracking and falloff can be pushed while still keeping a high DPS. There will also be an explanation how the random damage distribution of turrets works, and why hard to hit targets are struck for less damage. As well as some guidelines for how damage modules and tracking modules can be compared if you know what kind of angular velocity the target has.
 Additional information about turrets can also be found on http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turrets and tips and tricks for using turrets more effectively is at http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Gunnery_Guide
@@ Line 49: / Line 50: @@
 Now lets look at the range part. Being inside optimal never incurs a hit penalty, so we must move out into falloff ranges too see any changes in the to-hit-equation's output values. Lets freeze everything apart from falloff. What we are left with is: a frozen number divided by Falloff.
-Did you see what they had in common? In the tracking term, we now have ''something / Turret tracking'', in the range term we have ''something / Falloff''. In each case there is a value that is divided by the variable of interest. Since both of them are calculated from 0.5 ^ (term), this means that tracking and falloff mathematically behave in exactly the same way. If you understand how one of them works, you have already understood the other. The variables and their meanings in each case are a little different, but the outcome is the same way.
+Did you see what they had in common? In the tracking term, we now have ''something / Turret tracking'', in the range term we have ''something / Falloff''. In both cases there is a value that is divided by the variable we are  interested in. That means that tracking and falloff behave in the same way. So if you understand how falloff works, you also understand how tracking works, even if you haven't realized it yet.
@@ Line 95: / Line 96: @@
 |}
-A turret with a 100% hit chance will see a natural and unavoidable damage spread between 50% to 149% of its base damage for normal hits, and will always do exactly 300% of its base damage on perfect hits. A turret with a 75% hit chance will have a damage spread of 50%-124% on normal hits and do 300% on perfect hits, thus it can never do any excellent hits.
+A turret with a 100% hit chance will see a natural and unavoidable damage spread between 50% to 149% of its base damage for normal hits, and will always do exactly 300% of its base damage on perfect hits. A turret with a 75% hit chance will have a damage spread of 50%-124% on normal hits and do 300% on perfect hits, thus it can never do any excellent hits because they are now misses.
 '''Example:'''
@@ Line 114: / Line 115: @@
 The true strength with the table and graphs below are not to calculate what your DPS might be in a given situation. But rather to see how much you can push your falloff and tracking while still maintaining a decent DPS output.
 Now consider the following notable values.
-*Below 0.33 parts into ... : the DPS loss is at most 10%, a very small effect, being at 0.33 or below means pretty much that you have nearly top performance, you are still in your sweet spot.
+*Below 0.333 parts into ... : the DPS loss is at most 10%, a very small effect, being at 0.33 or below means pretty much that you have nearly top performance, you are still in your sweet spot.
 *Above 0.50 parts into... : the DPS loss is now 22% or more and may start to become a problem, you can try manual piloting to rectify this unless you have a tactical reason for keeping the current conditions, for example a situation where your opponant have an even higher loss of DPS.
 *Above 1.0 parts into... : at this point the DPS loss is 60% or more. Some damage is still better than no damage, but keep in mind that you have a pretty lousy performance under these circumstances.
-Especially the 0.33 value is good to remember. Know your guns and know how far you can push them. If you want to maintain a high DPS, this is how deep you can go into either tracking or falloff (if you are pushing both use 0.25 instead). If you go outside it, your DPS will start dropping and if you go further in there is only a small increase in damage. This is kind of the golden limit that comes out from studying the To-Hit-Equation. Like all guidelines, this one comes with an exception too, see the next section for that.
+Especially the 0.333 value is good to remember (one third of your tracking or falloff). Know your guns and know how far you can push them. If you want to maintain a high DPS, this is how deep you can go into either tracking or falloff (if you are pushing both use 0.25 instead). If you go outside it, your DPS will start dropping and if you go further in there is only a small increase in damage. This is kind of the golden limit that comes out from studying the To-Hit-Equation. Like all guidelines, this one comes with an exception too, see the next section for that.
@@ Line 133: / Line 134: @@
 |-
 |0.2||	0.9727||	0.9747||	-4.0%||
+|-
+|0.25||	0.9576||	0.9528||	-6.1%||
 |-
 |0.3||	0.9395||	0.9268||	-8.7%||
+|-
+|0.333||	0.9260||	0.9076||	-10.6%||
 |-
 |0.4||	0.8950||	0.8641||	-14.9%||
@@ Line 145: / Line 150: @@
 |-
 |0.8||	0.6417||	0.5454||	-46.3%||
+|-
+|0.848||	0.6075||	0.5072||	-50.0%||
 |-
 |0.9||	0.5704||	0.4672||	-54.0%||
 |-
-|1|| 0.5000||	0.3951||	-61.1%||
+|1.0||	0.5000||	0.3951||	-61.1%||
 |-
 |1.1||	0.4323||	0.3303||	-67.5%||
@@ Line 168: / Line 175: @@
 |1.9||	0.0819||	0.0685||	-93.2%||
 |-
-|2|| 0.0625||	0.0576||	-94.3%||
+|2.0||	0.0625||	0.0576||	-94.3%||
 |-
 |2.1||	0.0470||	0.0492||	-95.2%||
@@ Line 185: / Line 192: @@
 |-
 |2.8||	0.0044||	0.0131||	-98.7%||
+|-
+|2.9||	0.0029||	0.0088||	-99.1%||
+|-
+|3.0||	0.0020||	0.0059||	-99.4%||
 |}
@@ Line 199: / Line 211: @@
 Instead of thinking about ''Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius'' as an expression, think of it as a single number that the Transversal Speed is multiplied with. This makes sense if you look at the equation. Now, if this number is 1, it has no effect at all and tracking works as normal. But if the number is higher than 1, this would have the same effect as if the Transversal Speed went up, which means it is harder to hit. And if the number is lower than 1, this would have the same effect as if the Transversal Speed went down, which means it is easier to hit.
-If you know how many parts into tracking a certain ship is, and you want to adjust for the signature part too, you must multiply ''parts into tracking'' with ''Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius'' to get the ''true'' parts into tracking. There is no other way. This is not something that can be done in combat, but you can guess at if it will be higher or lower and then compensate a bit for it.
+If you know how many parts into tracking a certain ship is, and you want to adjust for the signature part too, you must multiply ''parts into tracking'' with ''Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius'' to get the ''true'' parts into tracking. There is no other way. This is not something that can be done in combat, mostly because you will not know the signature radius of your target. But you can use gut feeling and guess from what you see. Shields tanks means a bigger ship, armor tank a normal size. And then you compensate as you see fit.
 To better illustrate this, consider the following examples:
@@ Line 248: / Line 260: @@
 Webs:
-The effect from a web is hard to predict, since its use can change both the transversal speed and the range between the ships. Experience and practice will be your best guide here. The drawback with webs is that they help your opponants tracking as well as your own.
+The effect from a web is hard to predict, since its use can change both the transversal speed and the range between the ships. Experience and practice will be your best guide here. The drawback with webs is that they can help your opponants tracking as well as your own. The most important thing with a web is its tactical benefits, the fastest ship can control the range.
@@ Line 256: / Line 268: @@
 =Answers to some questions=
+==I heard that rails suck, is that true?==
+Beam lasers have the highest DPS (damage per second) and artillery cannons have the highest damage per hit (per volley). Both of these things are valuable, especially in PvP. High DPS is goood because it makes tough ships die faster. A high damage per hit is also good because it can instantly kill a target (something that is important when the target has  logistic support that repairs it). Railguns on the other hand have only the second best DPS and the worst damage per hit. The good things railguns have are the fastest firing speed and a slightly longer range than beam lasers.
+One must also look at the ammo each type of turret use. Lasers use crystals, changing them is immediate and they never run out of ammo. Projectiles use various ammo types that deal different damage types, which makes it easier to match the damage with the target. The hybrid ammo on the other hand is stuck with the same two damage types (like lasers are) and have a reload time (like projectiles do), if one feel a little mean one could say that hybrid ammo combines the worst of the other two types.
+Beam lasers and artillery cannons have drawbacks too of course. Generally speaking: The beam lasers uses a lot of capacitor energy and require immense amounts of power grid, they will only really work on Amarr ships. The artillery cannons also needs a lot of power grid and are designed to be used on ships with a bonus for projectil firing speed, otherwise it takes forever before they can shoot again. So for Gallente and Caldari ships, the railguns will still be the overall prefered pick. They still have the second best DPS, so they are not horrible.
 ==Do small targets take less damage from big guns?==
@@ Line 301: / Line 320: @@
 **Modified base damage x 3 = 68.5
-The collected data shows that the normal damage is distributed within 50%-149%. Since the first 1% unit is used for critical rolls, this means that the constant has to be 0.49.
+The collected data shows that the normal damage is distributed within 50%-149%. Since the first 1% unit is used for critical rolls (this is most likely, if the last % unit was used additional calculations will be needed if the to it chance is less than 1%), this means that the constant has to be 0.49.