Turret damage: Difference between revisions

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~~{{stub}}~~

{{Example|This is a work in progress. Some parts may be rewritten, things will be added and the layout is not complete.}}

{{Example|This is a work in progress. Some parts ~~need to~~ be rewritten, things will be added and the layout is not complete.}}

This article looks into the equations and math behind gunnery. Both to see how it really works and also to see what effect it has on the outgoing DPS (damage per second). There will be plenty of math and graphs, but the text will carefully explain how it works and examples will be used often. Hopefully this will allow the reader to better judge the effects from fighting in falloff and how to determine just how important tracking is against a fast moving ship.

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==Can a turret hit a target with a larger angular velocity than its own tracking?==

Yes it can. From the chance to hit equation it can be deduced that the tracking part can be broken down into:

Yes it can. From the chance to hit equation it can be deduced that the tracking part can be broken down into):

Chance to hit (tracking part) = 0.5 ^ (((Angular velocity / Turret tracking) * (Size ratio between gun and target))^2)

From ~~this~~ it can be seen that the angular velocity and the turret tracking are compared as a ratio -- it's not an upper limit. So turrets with less tracking than their target's angular velocity can still hit: all that happens is that the chance to hit is reduced. If we consider a case in which angular velocity is equal to the turret's tracking, and assuming that the size ratio between gun and target is 1 (the gun's signature resolution is equal to the targets signature radius), we get chance to hit = 0.5^((1/1*1)^2) = 0.5^1 = 0.5, or 50%. So, roughly speaking a gun will hit 50% of the time when angular velocity and turret tracking are the same on same sized targets.

We will assume that the target is inside optimal for the rest of this question, so that we can ignore the additional loss of hit chance if the target was in the falloff, if you wish to compensate for a target in falloff simply multiply the hit chance from the range part with the hit chance from the tracking part to get overall chance to hit.

From the equation above it can be seen that the angular velocity (= transversal speed / range to target) and the turret tracking are compared as a ratio -- it's not an upper limit. So turrets with less tracking than their target's angular velocity can still hit: all that happens is that the chance to hit is reduced. If we consider a case in which angular velocity is equal to the turret's tracking, and assuming that the size ratio between gun and target is 1 (the gun's signature resolution is equal to the targets signature radius), we get chance to hit = 0.5^((1/1*1)^2) = 0.5^1 = 0.5, or 50%. So, roughly speaking a gun will hit 50% of the time when angular velocity and turret tracking are the same on same sized targets.

If the angular velocity is twice as high as the tracking (and gun and ship still have identical sizes), the chance to hit becomes 0.5^4 = 6.25%. If the tracking is twice as big as the angular velocity (and again, size ratio is 1) then the chance to hit will be 0.5^((0.5)^2) = 0.5^0.25 = 84.1%. In theory small and fast ships could benefit more from tracking bonuses than they would from raw damage bonuses, at least if nobody tries any clever manual piloting moves.

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==Are target painters useful for turrets?==

Yes, but only if the chance to hit is below 100% due to ~~poor~~ tracking ~~or by using large guns against a small target~~. If the decreased hit chance is because of ~~falloff~~ then a target painter will not help at all. A regular Target Painter I increases the signature radius of a ship by +25%. Since all tracking terms are multiplied with another in the hit chance equation, the number can be moved around inside it to see how it effects the other factors. So another way to look at it is this: the signature radius increase is identical to what would happen if the target instead had reduced its angular velocity to 80% (100%/125%) of its current or as if the turrets had gotten +25% more tracking against the target. (Keep in mind that this last part was only a comparison, a target painter doesn't actually reduce anyone's speed or improves anyone's tracking.)

Yes, but only if the chance to hit is below 100% due to the tracking part of the Hit Chance equation. If the decreased hit chance is because of range then a target painter will not help at all, even though one might think so.

A regular Target Painter I increases the signature radius of a ship by +25%. Since all tracking terms are multiplied with another in the hit chance equation, the number can be moved around inside it to see how it effects the other factors. So another way to look at it is this: the signature radius increase is identical to what would happen if the target instead had reduced its angular velocity to 80% (100%/125%) of its current or as if the turrets had gotten +25% more tracking against the target. (Keep in mind that this last part was only a comparison, a target painter doesn't actually reduce anyone's speed or improves anyone's tracking.)

==If I group my guns, does EVE pick the same random number for all of them?==

No. Even if the guns are grouped on your screen, they are still treated ~~as separate turrets~~. ~~You~~ can ~~see this~~ by ~~looking at~~ the ~~turret group's average~~ damage distribution. It's also ~~quite easy to see~~ by looking at the damage output when shooting deep into falloff (or ~~against hard-to-track targets)~~.

No. Even if the guns are grouped on your screen, they are still treated separately. This can be seen by collecting damage data and comparing that with the normal expected damage distribution, its very clear that its a combination of several seperate turret shots. It can also be deduced by looking at the turret group's damage output when shooting at hard to hit objects, like deep into falloff, its quite easy to tell when one, two or more guns hit the target.

==+0.49? It says +0.50 on EVEonline wiki==

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-{{stub}}
+{{Example|This is a work in progress. Some parts may be rewritten, things will be added and the layout is not complete.}}
-{{Example|This is a work in progress. Some parts need to be rewritten, things will be added and the layout is not complete.}}
 This article looks into the equations and math behind gunnery. Both to see how it really works and also to see what effect it has on the outgoing DPS (damage per second). There will be plenty of math and graphs, but the text will carefully explain how it works and examples will be used often. Hopefully this will allow the reader to better judge the effects from fighting in falloff and how to determine just how important tracking is against a fast moving ship.
@@ Line 213: / Line 212: @@
 ==Can a turret hit a target with a larger angular velocity than its own tracking?==
-Yes it can. From the chance to hit equation it can be deduced that the tracking part can be broken down into:
+Yes it can. From the chance to hit equation it can be deduced that the tracking part can be broken down into):
 Chance to hit (tracking part) = 0.5 ^ (((Angular velocity / Turret tracking) * (Size ratio between gun and target))^2)
-From this it can be seen that the angular velocity and the turret tracking are compared as a ratio -- it's not an upper limit. So turrets with less tracking than their target's angular velocity can still hit: all that happens is that the chance to hit is reduced. If we consider a case in which angular velocity is equal to the turret's tracking, and assuming that the size ratio between gun and target is 1 (the gun's signature resolution is equal to the targets signature radius), we get chance to hit = 0.5^((1/1*1)^2) = 0.5^1 = 0.5, or 50%. So, roughly speaking a gun will hit 50% of the time when angular velocity and turret tracking are the same on same sized targets.
+We will assume that the target is inside optimal for the rest of this question, so that we can ignore the additional loss of hit chance if the target was in the falloff, if you wish to compensate for a target in falloff simply multiply the hit chance from the range part with the hit chance from the tracking part to get overall chance to hit.
+From the equation above it can be seen that the angular velocity (= transversal speed / range to target) and the turret tracking are compared as a ratio -- it's not an upper limit. So turrets with less tracking than their target's angular velocity can still hit: all that happens is that the chance to hit is reduced. If we consider a case in which angular velocity is equal to the turret's tracking, and assuming that the size ratio between gun and target is 1 (the gun's signature resolution is equal to the targets signature radius), we get chance to hit = 0.5^((1/1*1)^2) = 0.5^1 = 0.5, or 50%. So, roughly speaking a gun will hit 50% of the time when angular velocity and turret tracking are the same on same sized targets.
 If the angular velocity is twice as high as the tracking (and gun and ship still have identical sizes), the chance to hit becomes 0.5^4 = 6.25%. If the tracking is twice as big as the angular velocity (and again, size ratio is 1) then the chance to hit will be 0.5^((0.5)^2) = 0.5^0.25 = 84.1%. In theory small and fast ships could benefit more from tracking bonuses than they would from raw damage bonuses, at least if nobody tries any clever manual piloting moves.
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 ==Are target painters useful for turrets?==
-Yes, but only if the chance to hit is below 100% due to poor tracking or by using large guns against a small target. If the decreased hit chance is because of falloff then a target painter will not help at all. A regular Target Painter I increases the signature radius of a ship by +25%. Since all tracking terms are multiplied with another in the hit chance equation, the number can be moved around inside it to see how it effects the other factors. So another way to look at it is this: the signature radius increase is identical to what would happen if the target instead had reduced its angular velocity to 80% (100%/125%) of its current or as if the turrets had gotten +25% more tracking against the target. (Keep in mind that this last part was only a comparison, a target painter doesn't actually reduce anyone's speed or improves anyone's tracking.)
+Yes, but only if the chance to hit is below 100% due to the tracking part of the Hit Chance equation. If the decreased hit chance is because of range then a target painter will not help at all, even though one might think so.
+A regular Target Painter I increases the signature radius of a ship by +25%. Since all tracking terms are multiplied with another in the hit chance equation, the number can be moved around inside it to see how it effects the other factors. So another way to look at it is this: the signature radius increase is identical to what would happen if the target instead had reduced its angular velocity to 80% (100%/125%) of its current or as if the turrets had gotten +25% more tracking against the target. (Keep in mind that this last part was only a comparison, a target painter doesn't actually reduce anyone's speed or improves anyone's tracking.)
 ==If I group my guns, does EVE pick the same random number for all of them?==
-No. Even if the guns are grouped on your screen, they are still treated as separate turrets. You can see this by looking at the turret group's average damage distribution. It's also quite easy to see by looking at the damage output when shooting deep into falloff (or against hard-to-track targets).
+No. Even if the guns are grouped on your screen, they are still treated separately. This can be seen by collecting damage data and comparing that with the normal expected damage distribution, its very clear that its a combination of several seperate turret shots. It can also be deduced by looking at the turret group's damage output when shooting at hard to hit objects, like deep into falloff, its quite easy to tell when one, two or more guns hit the target.
 ==+0.49? It says +0.50 on EVEonline wiki==