Difference between revisions of "Ninja Salvaging and Stealing"
m (moved Ninja Salvaging to Ninja Salvaging and Stealing: This is a more appropriate name for this page, since ninja salvage is not "stealing" according to CONCORD/CCP.) |
(Cleaned up several errors in the page, as well as differentiated between Salvage and Stealing, since these are two separate acts, and one of them isn't criminal (though it is not liked.)) |
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| − | Ninja salvaging refers, precisely, to entering a mission-runner's mission and salvaging their wrecks for your own profit. It is also used more generally to refer to salvaging a | + | Ninja salvaging refers, precisely, to entering a mission-runner's mission and salvaging their wrecks without their knowledge or permission for your own profit. It is also used more generally to refer to salvaging any wreck which does not belong to the person salvaging. Stealing on the other hand, is taking items from a wreck without permission, either for profit or to provoke the owner into allowing you to blow them up (for fun and profit). Some users will confuse the two terms, or will lump both ninja salvaging and stealing together even though the penalties for each are different (stealing results in a criminal flag, while ninja salvaging does not.) |
| − | + | Note that '''University pilots are [[Ivy_League_Policies#Looting_and_Salvaging|not allowed]] to salvage or steal from others' wrecks without their permission'''. You can ninja salvage or steal using an alt, but it must be impossible to trace that alt to your main character or to the University. | |
| − | Note that | + | Note that Ninja Salvaging or Stealing are not exploits, which means that CCP will not remove you from the game for doing either activity. |
| − | + | ==Wrecks== | |
| − | + | A wreck is the remains of a ship that has been destroyed. Wrecks can be either NPC or Player Ships, and EVE does not differentiate between NPC or Player Wrecks. Wrecks can be anywhere in the game. A wreck is designated on the overview and in the EVE screen as an upside-down triangle, and if the wreck contains items that can be looted the triangle is solid, while empty wrecks are denoted with an empty triangle. Wrecks that belong to you or your corporation will be white. Wrecks that belong to someone else are Yellow, and those wrecks that have been abandoned will be blue. | |
| − | + | A player can take items from any wreck that is white (except in the case of a player who is in an non-player corporation (NPC) who takes from another player in a NPC) or blue without penalty from CONCORD. A player who takes items from a yellow wreck will be warned by the game (if the player has not disabled this warning) and if they take from the wreck, they will be flagged with a criminal flag and the player who owned that wreck will be able to shoot at them for a limited time (15 minutes.) Taking items from yellow wrecks are considered stealing. | |
| − | + | According to CCP, items within a wreck belong to the player, but the salvage is owned by no one. As a result, players can legally salvage yellow wrecks without being flagged. However, players must realize that most mission-runners consider salvage to be part of the perks of mission-running, so while you may not be criminally flagged, you can find yourself on a list of folks the person would like to suicide gank at the next possible opportunity. | |
| − | === | + | ===Stealing from a Wreck=== |
| − | + | Stealing from someone else's wreck is very much like looting your own wrecks. Get close enough to the wreck, and then open it. However, once you do so you better be ready to fight or run away, since the player you steal from now has rights to kill you. Furthermore, they may call for a fleet of ships to come in and help them. The aggression rules allow anyone in the corp with the victim to shoot at you, so for 15 minutes, anyone in the corp you stole from may try to kill you. | |
| − | + | ===Salvaging a Wreck=== | |
| − | == | + | To salvage a ship, you need to possess a salvager module on your ship and need to have the Salvage skill. To salvage, click on the wreck and select "lock target". Once the wreck is locked, fly within 5000m of the wreck and activate the salvager module. You can use tractor beams to move white or blue wrecks, but not yellow wrecks, so it is best to just move close to the wreck to salvage it. |
| + | |||
| + | Warning: If you shoot at a wreck, this is no different than stealing from the wreck, and will result in a criminal flag and will give the owner rights to kill you. Be sure that if you use hot-keys, you are pressing the hot-key for the salvager and not your weapons. | ||
| + | |||
| + | ==Aggression== | ||
| + | |||
| + | When someone steals from you, they get marked as a criminal and you (or in the case of a player owned corporation, all members of the corporation) have rights to kill them. They will become red and for 15 minutes afterwards, you can retaliate without CONCORD getting involved. | ||
| + | |||
| + | However, if you shoot at them, you will receive an aggression timer yourself, and they will be able to kill you without CONCORD getting involved. Like [[Can Flipping]] the person who is looting your wreck is usually trying to provoke an attack, often because they think that mission-running PvE ships are no match for their PvP-fitted ship (however, this sometimes backfires.) If you are flying a PvP-fitted ship, and think you can take them on, or you have a bunch of corp buddies waiting to pounce on them, then this might be a good time to take the player up on their provocation. | ||
If someone who does not own a wreck takes loot from it, they flag themselves as a valid target for the wreck's owner (but ''not'' for all and sundry) for fifteen minutes. They will go flashy on the owner's overview, if it's set up competently. Flagging allows the destruction of the flashy's ship but not their pod. | If someone who does not own a wreck takes loot from it, they flag themselves as a valid target for the wreck's owner (but ''not'' for all and sundry) for fifteen minutes. They will go flashy on the owner's overview, if it's set up competently. Flagging allows the destruction of the flashy's ship but not their pod. | ||
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If the mission-runner who owns the wrecks has responded violently, flagging himself to the looter and starting a fifteen-minute timer, it is possible for the looter to reset the timer back to fifteen minutes by shooting one of the mission-runner's wrecks. | If the mission-runner who owns the wrecks has responded violently, flagging himself to the looter and starting a fifteen-minute timer, it is possible for the looter to reset the timer back to fifteen minutes by shooting one of the mission-runner's wrecks. | ||
| − | This means that the timer can be effectively extended much longer than fifteen minutes. Extended timers '''are invisible''' to the mission-runner -- mission-runners who don't know about this aggro-extending mechanic frequently attack a | + | This means that the timer can be effectively extended much longer than fifteen minutes. Extended timers '''are invisible''' to the mission-runner -- mission-runners who don't know about this aggro-extending mechanic frequently attack a looter, dock up, wait out their ''visible'' aggression timer, and then undock only to be blown up because the looter had invisibly extended the timer. |
| − | ==How Ninja Salvaging Works== | + | ==How Ninja Salvaging/Looting Works== |
| − | Here's a rough outline of the process of ninja salvaging: | + | Here's a rough outline of the process of ninja salvaging/looting: |
#The ninja looks for suitable targets running L4 missions and gets a warp-in on one using combat scanner probes, possibly augmented with the [[Directional Scanner Guide|directional scanner]]. This is usually in a popular mission-running hub system. | #The ninja looks for suitable targets running L4 missions and gets a warp-in on one using combat scanner probes, possibly augmented with the [[Directional Scanner Guide|directional scanner]]. This is usually in a popular mission-running hub system. | ||
#[[Battleship#Marauders|Marauders]], [[Strategic Cruiser|T3 cruisers]] and faction battleships are popular targets since they're often fitted with valuable faction modules. | #[[Battleship#Marauders|Marauders]], [[Strategic Cruiser|T3 cruisers]] and faction battleships are popular targets since they're often fitted with valuable faction modules. | ||
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==How to Defend Yourself== | ==How to Defend Yourself== | ||
| − | If you find a ninja in your mission, you have a number of options | + | If you find a ninja in your mission, you have a number of options: |
===Ignore Them=== | ===Ignore Them=== | ||
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This is the most frustrating option, but it's also the safest. If you refuse to respond to a ninja, they can't attack you. The worst that will happen is that you will lose the loot and salvage for that mission -- you will still get the mission reward, Loyalty Points and some of the bounties. | This is the most frustrating option, but it's also the safest. If you refuse to respond to a ninja, they can't attack you. The worst that will happen is that you will lose the loot and salvage for that mission -- you will still get the mission reward, Loyalty Points and some of the bounties. | ||
| − | Since many ninjas are motivated by the potential of easy, consequence-free PvP in highsec, valuable loot from your ship and amusing tears from you in local, refusing to respond will probably bore them into finding someone else to pick on. If you're unlucky you'll have met a ninja who's doing it solely for profit, and in that case not responding may encourage them to repeatedly salvage your missions. | + | While ninja looting will result in a criminal flag and you can choose to fire at them or not, ninja salvage does not result in a criminal flag, so if you fire at them, CONCORD will come in and attack you. Often times, with ninja salvage, this is the best approach, though it may not be fun. |
| + | |||
| + | Since many ninjas are motivated by the potential of easy, consequence-free PvP in highsec, valuable loot from your ship and amusing tears from you in local, refusing to respond will probably bore them into finding someone else to pick on. If you're unlucky you'll have met a ninja who's doing it solely for profit, and in that case not responding may encourage them to repeatedly salvage your missions. | ||
| + | |||
| + | ===Take a Friend=== | ||
| + | |||
| + | Bring in a corpmate to help with the looting/salvage, so that while you are fighting the baddies, your corpmate is busy clearing the space of wrecks. This will dissuade a ninja looter/salvager, since there are two or more people who can attack them if they try anything, but it may not keep everyone away. Using fleet and loot logging helps, as you can then split the proceeds of the adventure. | ||
===Shoot Your Wrecks=== | ===Shoot Your Wrecks=== | ||
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#Warp out. The quicker you do this the lower the chance that the next wave will notice you and aggro you instead of the ninja; the more slowly you do it the less warning you give to the ninja that something's about to happen. | #Warp out. The quicker you do this the lower the chance that the next wave will notice you and aggro you instead of the ninja; the more slowly you do it the less warning you give to the ninja that something's about to happen. | ||
| − | This seems to work best on inexperienced ninjas (but remember that some ninjas who are new characters are experienced players' alts) who don't have a firm grasp of | + | This seems to work best on inexperienced ninjas (but remember that some ninjas who are new characters are experienced players' alts) who don't have a firm grasp of aggression mechanics or the speed-tanking abilities of their small ships. |
Some missions have a complex combination of warp-in, trigger and proximity aggro (some rooms in Worlds Collide, for example) and it's possible for ninjas to be attacked by rats in these. These missions are harder to control than ones which consist of sequentially triggered waves. | Some missions have a complex combination of warp-in, trigger and proximity aggro (some rooms in Worlds Collide, for example) and it's possible for ninjas to be attacked by rats in these. These missions are harder to control than ones which consist of sequentially triggered waves. | ||
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===Fight Back=== | ===Fight Back=== | ||
| − | Unlike the [[Can Flipping#What to do when flipped|policy]] for dealing with can flippers, the University does not currently have an official procedure for responding to ninja | + | Unlike the [[Can Flipping#What to do when flipped|policy]] for dealing with can flippers, the University does not currently have an official procedure for responding to ninja looters. However, we advise that you only engage them if you have fleet backup, much as outlined in the canflipping policy. Never, ever, fight back against a ninja salvager, as doing so will result in not only them getting kill rights on you, but CONCORD will show up and have their way with your ship too. |
Be prepared to lose whatever ship(s) you put at risk, and be prepared for unpleasant surprises. Ninjas' resources and experience vary, but besides their own combat ships they sometimes have | Be prepared to lose whatever ship(s) you put at risk, and be prepared for unpleasant surprises. Ninjas' resources and experience vary, but besides their own combat ships they sometimes have | ||
Revision as of 08:40, 20 July 2010
Ninja salvaging refers, precisely, to entering a mission-runner's mission and salvaging their wrecks without their knowledge or permission for your own profit. It is also used more generally to refer to salvaging any wreck which does not belong to the person salvaging. Stealing on the other hand, is taking items from a wreck without permission, either for profit or to provoke the owner into allowing you to blow them up (for fun and profit). Some users will confuse the two terms, or will lump both ninja salvaging and stealing together even though the penalties for each are different (stealing results in a criminal flag, while ninja salvaging does not.)
Note that University pilots are not allowed to salvage or steal from others' wrecks without their permission. You can ninja salvage or steal using an alt, but it must be impossible to trace that alt to your main character or to the University.
Note that Ninja Salvaging or Stealing are not exploits, which means that CCP will not remove you from the game for doing either activity.
Wrecks
A wreck is the remains of a ship that has been destroyed. Wrecks can be either NPC or Player Ships, and EVE does not differentiate between NPC or Player Wrecks. Wrecks can be anywhere in the game. A wreck is designated on the overview and in the EVE screen as an upside-down triangle, and if the wreck contains items that can be looted the triangle is solid, while empty wrecks are denoted with an empty triangle. Wrecks that belong to you or your corporation will be white. Wrecks that belong to someone else are Yellow, and those wrecks that have been abandoned will be blue.
A player can take items from any wreck that is white (except in the case of a player who is in an non-player corporation (NPC) who takes from another player in a NPC) or blue without penalty from CONCORD. A player who takes items from a yellow wreck will be warned by the game (if the player has not disabled this warning) and if they take from the wreck, they will be flagged with a criminal flag and the player who owned that wreck will be able to shoot at them for a limited time (15 minutes.) Taking items from yellow wrecks are considered stealing.
According to CCP, items within a wreck belong to the player, but the salvage is owned by no one. As a result, players can legally salvage yellow wrecks without being flagged. However, players must realize that most mission-runners consider salvage to be part of the perks of mission-running, so while you may not be criminally flagged, you can find yourself on a list of folks the person would like to suicide gank at the next possible opportunity.
Stealing from a Wreck
Stealing from someone else's wreck is very much like looting your own wrecks. Get close enough to the wreck, and then open it. However, once you do so you better be ready to fight or run away, since the player you steal from now has rights to kill you. Furthermore, they may call for a fleet of ships to come in and help them. The aggression rules allow anyone in the corp with the victim to shoot at you, so for 15 minutes, anyone in the corp you stole from may try to kill you.
Salvaging a Wreck
To salvage a ship, you need to possess a salvager module on your ship and need to have the Salvage skill. To salvage, click on the wreck and select "lock target". Once the wreck is locked, fly within 5000m of the wreck and activate the salvager module. You can use tractor beams to move white or blue wrecks, but not yellow wrecks, so it is best to just move close to the wreck to salvage it.
Warning: If you shoot at a wreck, this is no different than stealing from the wreck, and will result in a criminal flag and will give the owner rights to kill you. Be sure that if you use hot-keys, you are pressing the hot-key for the salvager and not your weapons.
Aggression
When someone steals from you, they get marked as a criminal and you (or in the case of a player owned corporation, all members of the corporation) have rights to kill them. They will become red and for 15 minutes afterwards, you can retaliate without CONCORD getting involved.
However, if you shoot at them, you will receive an aggression timer yourself, and they will be able to kill you without CONCORD getting involved. Like Can Flipping the person who is looting your wreck is usually trying to provoke an attack, often because they think that mission-running PvE ships are no match for their PvP-fitted ship (however, this sometimes backfires.) If you are flying a PvP-fitted ship, and think you can take them on, or you have a bunch of corp buddies waiting to pounce on them, then this might be a good time to take the player up on their provocation.
If someone who does not own a wreck takes loot from it, they flag themselves as a valid target for the wreck's owner (but not for all and sundry) for fifteen minutes. They will go flashy on the owner's overview, if it's set up competently. Flagging allows the destruction of the flashy's ship but not their pod.
If the wrecks' owner then attacks the flashy looter, he will flag himself back to them for fifteen minutes too. This means that they can escape, switch or replace their ship, find the owner again and re-engage if they want to.
If the mission-runner who owns the wrecks has responded violently, flagging himself to the looter and starting a fifteen-minute timer, it is possible for the looter to reset the timer back to fifteen minutes by shooting one of the mission-runner's wrecks.
This means that the timer can be effectively extended much longer than fifteen minutes. Extended timers are invisible to the mission-runner -- mission-runners who don't know about this aggro-extending mechanic frequently attack a looter, dock up, wait out their visible aggression timer, and then undock only to be blown up because the looter had invisibly extended the timer.
How Ninja Salvaging/Looting Works
Here's a rough outline of the process of ninja salvaging/looting:
- The ninja looks for suitable targets running L4 missions and gets a warp-in on one using combat scanner probes, possibly augmented with the directional scanner. This is usually in a popular mission-running hub system.
- Marauders, T3 cruisers and faction battleships are popular targets since they're often fitted with valuable faction modules.
- The ninja warps in in a fast and expendable ship (the Vigil, for example).
- The ninja salvages. If the ninja just wants to profit from salvage with no risk, he will simply salvage wrecks and not flag himself.
- The ninja loots from a wreck to flag himself as a valid target to the mission-runner. He might try to goad the mission-runner into engaging by taunting him in local or in a conversation.
- If the mission-runner engages he will flag himself back to the ninja who will escape (with or without his ship) and switch to a powerful combat ship.
- The ninja returns and destroys the mission-runner. This is usually easy, since PvE-fitted ships are not much use in PvP, and the ninja can take note of the rat type in the mission, and make sure that he is dealing damage that the mission-runner is not tanked for. A strong PvE tank is not usually a strong PvP tank!
- The ninja scoops any valuable faction loot and possibly screencaps any mission-runner tears in local for posterity.
If the mission-runner engages and destroys the ninja, or forces them to run, and then docks up to wait out their visible aggression timer, the ninja can hang around in the mission pocket, shooting one of the mission-runner's wrecks every fourteen minutes to extend an invisible aggression timer. Then the ninja can engage and destroy the mission-runner when they return.
For this reason, if you do decide to shoot a ninja it may be necessary to set all the wrecks in your mission pocket to 'abandoned' before docking up to wait out your aggression timer.
How to Defend Yourself
If you find a ninja in your mission, you have a number of options:
Ignore Them
This is the most frustrating option, but it's also the safest. If you refuse to respond to a ninja, they can't attack you. The worst that will happen is that you will lose the loot and salvage for that mission -- you will still get the mission reward, Loyalty Points and some of the bounties.
While ninja looting will result in a criminal flag and you can choose to fire at them or not, ninja salvage does not result in a criminal flag, so if you fire at them, CONCORD will come in and attack you. Often times, with ninja salvage, this is the best approach, though it may not be fun.
Since many ninjas are motivated by the potential of easy, consequence-free PvP in highsec, valuable loot from your ship and amusing tears from you in local, refusing to respond will probably bore them into finding someone else to pick on. If you're unlucky you'll have met a ninja who's doing it solely for profit, and in that case not responding may encourage them to repeatedly salvage your missions.
Take a Friend
Bring in a corpmate to help with the looting/salvage, so that while you are fighting the baddies, your corpmate is busy clearing the space of wrecks. This will dissuade a ninja looter/salvager, since there are two or more people who can attack them if they try anything, but it may not keep everyone away. Using fleet and loot logging helps, as you can then split the proceeds of the adventure.
Shoot Your Wrecks
Blowing up your own wrecks stops the ninja from profiting from them. It also hopefully indicates that you don't value your wrecks that much, and might not be easily baited into fighting them. Watching someone blowing up wrecks and refusing to respond to your smacktalk can be quite boring, and this may persuade them to find another victim.
Sic Rats on Them
It's possible to get rats to attack the ninja by warping out. Normally this isn't much use as any half-awake player will notice what you're doing. But in some missions with well-defined orders of waves which are triggered when you destroy particular ships in previous waves -- such as The Blockade and Gone Berserk -- you have a slightly better chance because you can stimulate the arrival of more rats. To do this, you should
- Identify a trigger ship.
- Check that no rats are tackling you.
- Align to a celestial so that you're ready to warp near-instantly.
- Blow up the trigger ship.
- Warp out. The quicker you do this the lower the chance that the next wave will notice you and aggro you instead of the ninja; the more slowly you do it the less warning you give to the ninja that something's about to happen.
This seems to work best on inexperienced ninjas (but remember that some ninjas who are new characters are experienced players' alts) who don't have a firm grasp of aggression mechanics or the speed-tanking abilities of their small ships.
Some missions have a complex combination of warp-in, trigger and proximity aggro (some rooms in Worlds Collide, for example) and it's possible for ninjas to be attacked by rats in these. These missions are harder to control than ones which consist of sequentially triggered waves.
At the end of the day this tactic is not that likely to succeed, but it's still quite safe and considerably more satisfying than doing nothing. If the rats do kill your ninja, remember that they own their own wreck and looting it will flag you to them (just as they would want!).
Fight Back
Unlike the policy for dealing with can flippers, the University does not currently have an official procedure for responding to ninja looters. However, we advise that you only engage them if you have fleet backup, much as outlined in the canflipping policy. Never, ever, fight back against a ninja salvager, as doing so will result in not only them getting kill rights on you, but CONCORD will show up and have their way with your ship too.
Be prepared to lose whatever ship(s) you put at risk, and be prepared for unpleasant surprises. Ninjas' resources and experience vary, but besides their own combat ships they sometimes have
- Friends backing them up in combat ships
- Friends remote-repairing them
- Out-of-corp scouts, potentially in covops ships
- Out-of-corp Orca characters letting them rapidly switch ships in space
Whatever you do, don't engage using your PvE ship. This is precisely what the ninja wants. Your PvE ship is almost certainly expensive, expensively-fitted and badly fitted for PvP.
Even if you decide to engage on your own, at the very least warp out and get a PvP ship. This means a ship which you can afford to lose, with a thought-out PvP fit already in it. It does not mean something you grabbed from your hangar or from the market because it's large or expensive, and then fitted on the fly using modules you had lying around.
