What are key strengths of this doctrine? Why should I use it?
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Raido Kudonen
Talwars are mobile, have excellent damage projection, and extremely cheap. There is no better doctrine for new FCs, as Talwars in sufficient numbers can fight against almost any kind of subcaps and are easily replaceable if the FC makes a mistake.
Aside from being very newbie-friendly, Talwars are also excellent for raiding fleets generally because of their fairly high alpha, fast warp speed, and mobility. Talwar fleets have often traded well against QRFs after decimating ratters and miners in null pockets, which results in fun fights and great kills.
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White 0rchid
Talwars have fantastic damage projection for a destroyer. They're a great doctrine for budding FCs to learn how to fly kitey. With enough Talwars, you have a decent amount of alpha that can often surprise people.
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What areas of space is this doctrine best suited to?
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White 0rchid
I'd personally take these to null, fighting at zero in plexes is not ideal for these ships. You rely on your range and speed to avoid getting shot.
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Raido Kudonen
Talwars are best in nullsec, where you can easily warp the fleet at range to targets so that you begin the fight at your preferred engagement range and can just begin volleying targets.
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How should the fleet be positioned when using this doctrine?
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Raido Kudonen
Talwars should engage at a range of 50-60km. Anchor on the FC (or for a very new FC, the designated fleet anchor) and take countdowns to blap the broadcasted target. Talwars should get to this ideal range (if they don’t start there from a good warp-in) as soon as possible, then maximize transversal or align out depending on the threats on field.
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White 0rchid
You should really be aiming to stay at around 50km from their fleet/ships if you have lower skilled players in the group (check their missile range before you leave to gauge how far you can project). You need to avoid being shot at all in talwars, it won't end well.
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Are there any fleet comp aspects that are critical to the doctrine?
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Raido Kudonen
You should not undock without approximately 10 Talwars, as this doctrine depends on having enough damage ships to kill targets quickly. 10 Talwars only gives about 10k alpha, which is often enough to clear interceptors but is really not ideal. You really want 20-30 Talwars, which allows you to one-shot most T1 cruisers and two-shot almost all other T1 cruisers and most T2 cruisers. Even better, although not typically achieved in the Uni, is a fleet of 40-50 Talwars, which will one-shot most battlecruisers and T2 logi.
In any case, I'd strongly recommend you always have at least one interceptor and one interdictor for every 10 Talwars. If you have 15+ Talwars, it is worthwhile to bring at least one command destroyer (ideally a Bifrost with Skirmish: Rapid Deployment and either Skirmish: Interdiction Maneuvers or Shield: Shield Harmonizing links, depending on if you brought a Hyena/Keres or not). Speaking of the Hyena and Keres, you ought to bring one of each with 15+ Talwars because they respectively insulate your fleet from incoming tackle and can damp out enemy logi if you’re not one-shotting enemy ships.
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White 0rchid
You just need numbers really. It's an alpha doctrine foremost and that's what you need to focus on. For support ships, an interceptor won't go amiss. Links on a command destroyer wouldn't be a bad idea. They're often faster than talwars anyway so won't have an issue keeping up. You could also use their jump to get out of harms way.
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Are there any unusual high priority targets when flying this doctrine?
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White 0rchid
You want to kill anything that can either catch you or severely hamper you. If they have a long range webber/tackler like a gallente or minmatar recon, you should focus on that if you can first. They will kill your speed and hold your anchor down.
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Raido Kudonen
Your priority targets are always incoming tackle, such as ceptors and dictors. Command destroyers are also high priority targets. If you have a Hyena in fleet, you should web down and blap any nearby T3Ds because T3Ds eat Talwars for breakfast. Ships like the Garmur, Orthrus, and Caracal are high threat because they can project damage about as far as Talwars and apply it very well to your fleet members.
The Cerberus is a special case because it very nearly counts as a “weakness” or “run away immediately” ship. This is because the Cerberus outranges Talwars (by about 10km if the Cerb loads Fury Scourge, or by about 30km if the Cerb loads faction Scourge) and kills one Talwar every 4 volleys (5 Talwars per RLML clip). However, the Cerb typically has an explosive resist hole and less than 50k EHP against your Nova missiles, so if a Cerberus pilot is stupid enough to warp into your missile damage envelope and not immediately kite out, you can two-shot him with 20+ Talwars and trade very well on the ISK.
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What are weaknesses of this doctrine? What situations is it not suited to?
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Raido Kudonen
Avoid all engagements inside acceleration gates (unless your captor pilot somehow caught a sleeping DED site runner, in which case murder him and GTFO), because acceleration gates force you to engage at the enemy’s preferred range. (If you set up inside an acceleration gate, nobody will ever take a fight against Talwars.)
Similarly, be extremely careful of engaging enemies who have Huginn/Rapier support, as they can web past your missile range and therefore make it very difficult for you to maneuver. Finally, Talwars are utterly unsuited for “small gang” warfare; if you can’t get your gang of fewer than 10 pilots into something better than kitey, low-DPS destroyers, you should just take frigates or Thrashers and bait inside FW plexes.
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White 0rchid
Do not take any fights at zero. Ganks, sure you can handle them, but not real fights. You don't have any logi at all and talwars are paper thin. You'll end up losing too many people to make it worth it. If you also get pinned down while kiting, it's better to extract as many people as you can first.
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How does tackle work for this kind of high range doctrine?
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White 0rchid
You can bring some interdictors but to be honest your reliance is on them being stupid. You're going to struggle getting an inty to tackle things with heavy neuts, for instance. It'll just end up dying. So try and catch them off guard before they warp out.
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Raido Kudonen
On tackle, it's pretty simple. Competent Interdictor pilots should be able to keep most large, slow targets (the Mackinaws or Orcas or Rattlesnakes that your ceptors catch) bubbled for as long as is necessary. Interceptor pilots should be able to land scrams on any such targets that try to MJD out. So if you're raiding in nullsec or something like that, tackle isn't a really big deal (often QRF elements will warp directly into the bubble to try to save their friends, if you're fighting Horde or Brave - so you just haze the QRF and then go back to shooting the bears).
The problem that I'm seeing a lot with people complaining about tackle involves Unistas taking on kitey (or MJDing, in the case of battleships) small-gang pilots in similar numbers with grossly inferior ships, then whining about how they don't have the ability to tackle the bad guys and therefore just end up feeding. Well, no shit. If you're fighting Orthri or 100mn kitey Tengus or whatever and you can't put a Rapier on grid and keep it repped as part of your QRF, you're feeding. Stop feeding.
(And conversely, if your campus *can* put those ships on grid but the pilots with high SP are shitlords who can't be bothered to undock for PvP, shame them until they stop being shitlords, the Uni absolutely depends on having people who are capable actually show up to help.)
What's absolutely indefensible is suiciding badly-fit T1 ships into an enemy gang in hopes of holding them on grid long enough for the rest of the fleet to accomplish something, especially if the badly-fit T1 ships are also less mobile/warp slower than the rest of the fleet.
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The Talwar doctrine is the only doctrine on this page without any logistics fits. Why would you fly without logistics in a fleet?
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White 0rchid
Talwars will die if anything bigger than a civilian railgun shoots them. Logi won't even have a chance. If you are taking small amounts of damage, warp yourself away or to a ping and warp back again.
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Raido Kudonen
Talwars are a harassment doctrine. A Talwar that receives sustained DPS from any source will die. You should either volley off enemies if you have enough ships to do so, trade a few Talwars in exchange for guaranteed kills on something bigger, or run away; extended engagements are a waste of time, effort, and ships.
If you wanted to win extended fights on grid with long range kitey missile ships, you should be using Caracals. They have much greater tank than the Talwars and slightly better speed, although their cap life, warp speed, and signature are worse and their missile range is lower.
For a kitey doctrine that flies very similar to Talwars but holds reps well, you might consider Jackdaws. Jackdaws have 23k ehp in defense mode, catch reps very well, have similar alpha and better DPS than Talwars, and are about the same speed (in SS mode) or much faster (in prop mode). The problem is that Jackdaws cost 70m-90m (depending on t1 or t2 rigs) and require more SP to train into. As a result, while they are still a relatively newbie-friendly doctrine by the standards of most PvP alliances, they're not as accessible as the BLAP ships.
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Fittings
<wikifit doctrineid="36574" shipid="32878" />
Support ships
Caracals
Doctrine Q&A
What are key strengths of this doctrine? Why should I use it?
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Raido Kudonen
Caracals' greatest strengths are their very high burst damage out to a solid range (~40km with BLAP Caracals; your T2 pilots should typically use Fury ammo) and their high mobility (~1800m/s with prop mod). These combine for a hit-and-fade tactical style where you get as much damage as you can with the fleet's RLML clips, then pull range or warp out.
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White 0rchid
Caracals are currently one of the strongest kiting T1 cruisers. With all Vs they can reach as far out as 65km with rapid lights (a very powerful weapons system). It's much easier for an FC to concentrate on the fight than worrying about weapon tracking or targets getting 'under your guns', as for the most part, you only need worry about range with RLMLs. They also sport a fairly decent tank at ~30k EHP. That coupled with their speed under MWD (up to 1900m/s) makes them fantastic ships at kiting and outranging most other T1 cruisers.
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What areas of space is this doctrine best suited to?
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Raido Kudonen
Don't use Caracals in Wspace. Otherwise they are excellent, subject to the limitations above (i.e. don't slide a FW plex into brawling cruisers; if you can go in first for a gank and then reposition, plex fights against cruisers are still fine).
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White 0rchid
You could technically fly this doctrine in any part of space, so long as your intention is not to brawl with it, of course. This means taking a fight inside a plex with a brawling vexor fleet already setup inside, is a bad idea. You also want to try and avoid being caught in bubbles on gates if you're in null.
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How should the fleet be positioned when using this doctrine?
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White 0rchid
Sit at almost the edge of your missile range and pulse your props if needed. Try not to perma run them. Have your logi anchor behind you (so you will be between them and the enemy). Shred off things like dictors and intys quickly because they will go down super fast. If you can, time your RLML reload appropriately (in other words make sure you're not taking heavy losses as you hit reload, you want to get out if that's the case).
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Raido Kudonen
As a fleet doctrine, Caracals engage by anchoring and pulling range to the edge of RLML range, where they project full damage and most turret cruisers either can't engage or project a small proportion of their potential damage. The anchor should spiral out to maximize transversal if the fight begins at close range.
NB: If hostiles chase you while you're kiting, you can project damage beyond your normal maximum missile range because the hostiles are flying towards your missiles.
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Are there any fleet comp aspects that are critical to the doctrine?
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Raido Kudonen
Caracals are effective in solo (although you need a warp disruptor in place of one of your hardeners), micro and small gang, and fleets up to 80-100 pilots. You should not, however, engage enemies if your fleet can't eliminate at least one or two enemy ships per RLML clip (for a BLAP Caracal with alpha skills, approximately 13k damage per clip per Caracal).
In general, you need an interceptor for every 5-8 Caracals (minimum 1), plus an interdictor for every 10-15 Caracals in nullsec. You should also have an Osprey for every 3-4 Caracals, starting at 3 Ospreys for a fleet of 8-9 Caracals (before that, you should bring either 2 Ospreys or 0 Ospreys).
Whenever possible, you should bring at least one Bifrost (double links fit, Skirmish: Rapid Deployment, Shield: Harmonizing). Fleets of 10 or more Caracals should also bring a Hyena and, if possible, a Keres. Additional command destroyers (Interdiction Maneuvers, Shield Extension, etc) are also highly desirable.
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White 0rchid
As with any fleet, try and keep a good ratio of caracals to logi. 3:1 isn't bad. I would always try and bring along a few intys with you. Don't focus on too many support roles though. You don't really need webbers or painters. You really just need numbers. RLMLs have very good damage with great application so you want to take them by surprise with that.
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Are there any unusual high priority targets when flying this doctrine?
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Raido Kudonen
Since Caracals can control range against nearly all T1 cruiser doctrines and even pirate cruisers must engage with caution if outnumbered, your highest priority is always to clear tackle so that you can avoid the worst case scenario for a Caracal fleet (being stuck on grid in an enemy's damage envelope when your RLMLs are on reload). Since Caracals apply very well to light ships, or perfectly if you have a Hyena on grid, you should be able to clear all or nearly all tackle ships on grid before you warp out.
As your fleet size increases, it becomes relatively more important to clear enemy logi. Typically, you should prioritize enemy logi with fleets of 15 or more Caracals, as you should be able to eliminate T1 cruiser logi with 4-5 volleys in fleets of that size.
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White 0rchid
Not particularly, no more so than other doctrines anyway. You probably want to haze fast tackle asap though. Both those and gallente/minmatar recons will be annoying as they'll shut down your ability to kite.
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What are weaknesses of this doctrine? What situations is it not suited to?
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White 0rchid
The tank is decent, but not amazing, so be careful of that. You need semi-competent anchors who know how to kite. There's nothing wrong with the FC and anchor being two different people as well. Don't try and brawl people with these unless you are 100% certain you can melt them.
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Raido Kudonen
Caracals' greatest weakness is their relatively low sustained DPS (factoring in reloads). You should avoid engaging targets that can tank through your clip or make you waste too many shots compared to other targets. Therefore, unless you hugely outnumber them, avoid engaging powerful self-rep ships (Deimos, Hyperion, marauders) or gangs with T2 logi. If you have Hyena and Griffin support, you can stay on grid with a carrier and rack up fighter killmails (and clear smaller ships on grid), but you have no realistic chance of actually killing the carrier or any other capital ships.
What are key strengths of this doctrine? Why should I use it?
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White 0rchid
These afterburner armor vexors are one of the most tanky T1 cruisers in the game. Because of this they are able to face most, if not all other T1 cruiser brawling doctrines with ease. Drones are their main damage source and, bar control range, don't of course have any optimal or falloff like guns would which makes them fairly easy to FC. Due to the decent tank, your logi should have a fair warning when primary has been switched onto someone else so you'll have a higher chance of catching reps.
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Raido Kudonen
This Vexor doctrine is another variant in a long line of afterburning, armor-tanked cruisers that use their low signature radius and moderate velocity to their advantage in brawling fights. Vexors also punch down very effectively against assault frigate or T3D gangs, since they can carry both a “damage” set (with a couple Ogres or, in alpha versions, a flight of Hammerheads) and an “application” set (Acolytes or Warriors) of drones. Finally, since Vexors use drones for most of their damage, they can manipulate transversal to considerable advantage when fighting other brawling doctrines.
You pick Vexors because you want to hunt and fight big targets (battleships, heavily tanked T3s, even caps if you have the numbers) that you couldn't break or couldn't tank with lighter burst DPS doctrines like Talwars or Caracals. Of the three BLAP fleet concepts, Vexors are by far the best suited to holding a grid against an enemy fleet or sticking around to kill something with lots of hit points.
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What areas of space is this doctrine best suited to?
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Raido Kudonen
This doctrine is usable in all areas of space. However, see the “weaknesses” section, and note that most nullsec alliances and all wormhole alliances can readily form fleets using ships in the “exactly like this, but better” category. Roaming in nullsec with this fairly slow doctrine therefore depends on your ability to anticipate hostile forces’ movement and pre-position your fleet to engage or disengage as it best suits you. However, since dictors cost about twice as much as your Vexors, you can trade fairly well just by hazing tackle.
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White 0rchid
Setting yourself up inside a plex in lowsec is a perfect place for you to take a fight with this doctrine. I wouldn't personally want to roam null in these as they're not as well suited (too slow, small engagement range). You could probably use these, if you had numbers, in wspace however.
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How should the fleet be positioned when using this doctrine?
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Raido Kudonen
Vexors should orbit on the FC/damage anchor at 500-1000m, with the logi anchor holding 35-40km off the damage anchor on the opposite side of the enemy. (Normal exceptions, such as holding the logi wing on a gate because you expect to deaggress and jump through, of course apply.)
The damage anchor should position based on the enemy fleet comp and likely weapons. For example, against blaster or autocannon users, the damage wing should load long range ammo (Iron/Spike) and pull as much range as possible; against laser, rail, arty, or missile users, the damage wing should load close range ammo (Antimatter/Javelin) and get as close as possible.
Against kiting gangs, such as Orthruses/Navy Ospreys/Caracals, you should damp the enemy out to the point that they must either close to your engagement range or go away. You have no ability to force kiting gangs to fight and should not try.
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White 0rchid
You'll want to choose an anchor, with all vexors keeping at range or approaching on that anchor. If their fleet is kitey, you need to be on top of them to do anything. If you cannot damp them sufficiently or get a good warpin on them, disengage and go elsewhere. For very close range weapons, try and fight outside their optimals, but within your's (usually further than 7km away).
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Are there any fleet comp aspects that are critical to the doctrine?
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White 0rchid
No more so than other doctrines. Keep a good ratio of dd to logi, 3:1 isn't bad. You'd most definitely be wanting to bring a links command destroyer once your fleet reaches greater than about 15 pilots, if not before. The reason you won't want to be taking something like a battlecruiser for links is that they cannot enter medium plexes, which will be your bread and butter in lowsec. As an added bonus the command destroyer can boosh (jump) your fleet away from harm or directly into it.
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Raido Kudonen
You should have 1 Augoror for every 3-4 Vexors, starting at 3 Augorors for a fleet of 8-10 Vexors. Do not undock without at least three Augorors. If you don’t have 12 pilots in fleet (one scout, 8 Vexors, 3 Augorors), this is not an appropriate doctrine for your small gang and you should fly something else. If at all possible, you should start with 4 Augorors, 12 Vexors, a scout, a command destroyer, and a couple other support ships for a total of about 20 in fleet as a good critical mass of this doctrine.
Do not undock without a command destroyer, fitted with two links modules (armor resists > armor buffer = tackle range > speed > else). Command destroyers are both the best links ships for T1 cruisers and invaluable for messing with enemy positioning; in small engagements, they also provide a scram on a ship that is faster than your DPS wing and therefore can help lock down targets that might otherwise MJD away. As the fleet gets larger, keep a minimum 1 command destroyer per 8-10 Vexors and there is no maximum number of Magi in your fleet.
While Vexors should generally be fitted with mixed tackle/ewar, dedicated tackle ships are useful. For smaller fleets, this includes a Hyena and Keres, each with an AB and full armor tank and anchored on the logi wing (the Keres should be fit with a long point and 3 damps, as closing to scram range exposes the Keres to too much danger). You can also use a buffer tanked Ashimmu in the damage wing (it only costs about 125m with a t2 fit; fit with 3 neuts and 2 nos in the highs).
For larger fleets (i.e. 6-8 Augorors minimum) you should bring recons (Huginn/Rapier/Lachesis) – the logi number here is more important than the damage number, as you shouldn’t bring T2 cruisers without adequate reps to keep them alive. In smaller fleets where cruiser tackle support would nonetheless be helpful, I highly recommend a buffer tanked Ashimmu, which only costs about 125m with a t2 fit.
You should never undock any fleet without at least one interceptor scout; in nullsec, you need a couple ceptors and at least one dictor. In wormhole space, you need the same as null, plus at least one cloaky scout.
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Are there any unusual high priority targets when flying this doctrine?
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Raido Kudonen
If you’re trying to extract, you should kill tackle. Otherwise, you need to lock down and kill logi if at all possible, because Vexors have difficulty target switching to break reps on enemy DPS ships.
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White 0rchid
Not particularly. Take a shot at their tackle with some light drones so it makes it easier to extract but that's about it. See if you can dent their main damage ships first, if not, try switching onto logi for a while as you will most likely be in range.
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What are weaknesses of this doctrine? What situations is it not suited to?
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White 0rchid
You really don't want to be fighting many T2 and upwards ships in this doctrine. Vexors might be very tanky and have decent damage application but you will severely struggle against a HAC gang or upwards, even something like Aug Navies will most likely shred you. Also anything that can severely outrange you even with your damps, you will struggle to fight.
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Raido Kudonen
This doctrine’s biggest weakness is that compared to the other BLAP doctrines, it is relatively high commitment because you’re fairly slow and fight with your DPS wing in tackle range of the enemy fleet. As a result, if you engage a gang outside your weight class, you’re going to take a lot of losses and probably not trade well. Some examples of gangs you shouldn’t fight without a substantial numbers or tactical advantage (such as being able to boosh off part of their fleet) follow. It’s difficult to quantify a tactical advantage, but I included the rough numerical advantages to give you an idea of what you need.
All “armor HAC” doctrines are very strong against Vexors. Sacrileges (flown occasionally by RDRAW), Zealots (same, also flown by several Calmil organizations), and Augoror Navy Issues (flown by any number of lowsec entities, also by Brave Newbies in null) can all defeat Vexors unless outnumbered by at least 3:1 for the HACs and 2:1 for the ANIs.
Some faction cruiser doctrines used in lowsec (CALSF’s Navy Osprey doctrine, various Gila doctrines) are difficult for Vexors to trade against because they combine very strong tank with a lot of DPS. You need about a 2:1 numbers advantage to engage them.
T3 AHACs, such as BLOC’s drone Proteus doctrine, mashed-up beam Legions/rail Protei (NC/PL, Goons, Co2, PM/Snuff/RDRAW, Waffles, others), and HAM Legions (all high-class and most low-class Wspace alliances, literally nobody outside Wspace) are a hard counter to these Vexors. Do not engage a group of T3 AHACs without at least a 5:1 advantage (if they’re using Guardians) or more logi than they have DPS (if they’re ~elite hisec pvp~ and using waves of neutral logi). Fortunately, people typically use these (and comparable fleets of faction battleships/command ships) for stratop timers rather than roaming or reaction fleets.
Finally, high-projection doctrines that aren’t easily damped to your engagement range are a serious threat, and you should usually leave field after hazing tackle. Examples include Cerbs (~70km lock range with one damp), Jackdaws (~75-80km lock range with one damp), and blobs of Cormorants or Talwars (you can’t damp enough of them).
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I like to fly in hisec, where command destroyers are unable to use their MJFG. Should I use something else for links?
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White 0rchid
No, bringing a larger ship along with you will only hamper the fleet. Replace the MJFG on the command destroyer with something useful instead (damp/tackle/td).
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Raido Kudonen
(Obviously you’re not bringing 600m ISK command ships, or 450m ISK + injector links T3s, with a T1 cruiser blob. Let’s be reasonable here.)
No. Here's why:
T1 battlecruisers are not good links ships. The command bursts on a T1 battlecruiser are 10% less effective than on a command destroyer (all else being equal). In a BC fleet, you trade less effective bursts for hiding in the blob. However, either a battlecruiser or a command destroyer will stand out of a T1 cruiser fleet and will therefore be vulnerable to being primaried. This leads to…
T1 battlecruisers are not as good at tanking as command destroyers. They have a signature radius about 4x as large, half as much speed (even if you use a quick battlecruiser, like the Hurricane, so that your links BC can actually keep up with the Vexors – a Prophecy can’t), and a T1 resist profile. This means that even though they have bigger buffer tanks, they’re much more likely to die in a serious fight – you know, the kind of engagement where you really need links.
People with enough SP to fly command destroyers – and there are many such people in the Uni – ought to step up and learn how to fly in mission-critical roles instead of orbiting the FC and pushing F1.
Warping around with battlecruisers in your cruiser fleet means you take longer to get places, which makes you more likely to be out of position and generally less likely to get content. So if you insist on bringing battlecruisers, you need a hyperspatial rig to keep up with the rest of the fleet. Which trades off with your buffer, which is literally the only good thing about links battlecruisers. Oops.
