User:Kyle Hargrove/Sandbox/Guardians

By Sayod Physulem

Active guardians are: - cheaper - have higher resists (at least with armor boosts, as passive means almost always a two adaptive resist mods) - can be overheated for even higher resists So they will survive in high dps situations where passive guardians wouldn't. A situation where a passive guardian would survive but an active wouldn't needs to fulfill the following requirements: 1. The primaried guardian has to be neuted so dry that it can't even activate hardeners anymore 2. The rest of the guardians need to still have cap (otherwise the passive guardian wouldn't survive either) or we are talking about extraction seconds 3. The primary has to be neuted frequently enough that the cap transfer from the other guardians (that are not dry, see point 2) are neuted immediately to not allow any reactivation of the hardeners

This requires a lot of neuting pressure on the primary. But if you have a small number of logistics, neuting the repairing guardians is more effective than neuting the primary, which invalidates requirement 2. So for this situation to occur you need a lot of guardians (enough that neuting the entire cap chain is not possible) but few enough guardians such that they can't just all give the primary cap which would then be so frequent that you will always be able to squeeze in a hardener activation.

Since I think that such a situation is less likely to occur (at least for the uni) than a situation where the dps can be managed with overheated hardeners I prefer the active guardian. And from experience I can tell that hardeners saved my life 3 times already while I never lost my guardian in a situation where I wouldn't have lost it flying a passive guardian

---

Slack dump

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:17 PM] infidel

Neonen [3:18 PM] >~infidel~ heretic FTFY (edited)

Sayod Physulem [3:18 PM] excellent so we have my argument and the argument: "infidel"

[3:19] we are ready for the wiki

[3:19]

stuck_out_tongue:

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:19 PM] i don't have time to type this out at work :stuck_out_tongue:

[3:19] so infidel does the trick

Sayod Physulem [3:24 PM] >than a situation where the dps can be managed with overheated hardeners

• but not a passive guardian

>I prefer the active guardian

[3:24] english is hard

Lisa Nardieu [3:25 PM] >than a situation where the dps can be managed with overheated hardeners >*but not a passive guardian

[3:25] should never happen

Sayod Physulem [3:25 PM] it does

Lisa Nardieu [3:25 PM] because at that point you dont have enough reps on grid for the rest of your fleet

Sayod Physulem [3:25 PM] you do

[3:26] because you have more guardians to rep non-logi than guardians to rep a guardian

[3:26] because you can't rep yourself

Lisa Nardieu [3:26 PM] because guards have the best resist in your fleet+ they are the smallest

[3:26] and at range

Sayod Physulem [3:26 PM] 3 guardians repair more than 2 guardians

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:26 PM] sssh Lisa, don't assume they are competent :stuck_out_tongue:

Sayod Physulem [3:27 PM] so as a dps ship you get repaired by 3 guardians while 2 guardians have to be enough as a guardian

[3:27] and because of that you need higher resists than the fleet as a guardian

[3:27] and sometimes the heated hardeners make the difference (edited)

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:27 PM] (49KB)

my surprise was just as much yday Lisa :smile:

Sayod Physulem [3:29 PM] if you have a big number of logistics that of course changes as the difference between 10 and 11 logi is not as big as the difference between 1 and 2

[3:29] but we only really fly with 2-4 guardians so this matters very much (edited)

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:29 PM] most people in this channel were in corps in w-space who bring 3-8 logi

Sayod Physulem [3:30 PM] and then it might change

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:30 PM] so 10 vs 11 does not apply

Sayod Physulem [3:30 PM] but in the whc you should fly an active guard

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:30 PM] nope

[3:30] infidel

[3:30]

stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Sayod Physulem [3:30 PM] yes because we don't fly 10 guardians

helioswipe moondraft [3:30 PM] is not going to make me fly active guard

Mrakling [3:31 PM] You forget Sayod, people in the WHC fly mostly passive because they can't remember to click all the modules (myself included) :stuck_out_tongue:

helioswipe moondraft [3:32 PM] well it's true, I don't have to focus on overheating or reactivating hardeners. My tank never changes

Sayod Physulem [3:32 PM] if you are primary you don't have to bother about repairing, you don't have to bother about not beeing jammed, the only things you have to think about is heating your hardeners and positioning/transversal

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:32 PM] and a lot of people don't overheat hardeners, because they forget

[3:33] they do overheat their highs, because the impact is a lot clearer

Sayod Physulem [3:33 PM] so while this is more micro it is micro at a time where you have to do less micro _because_ you are primary (edited)

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:33 PM] i disagree, positioning is key especially when you are primary

Sayod Physulem [3:33 PM] yes but you don't have to manage your repairs while primary

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:34 PM] even that i disagree with :stuck_out_tongue:

Sayod Physulem [3:34 PM] so you just switch your attention from the repairs to the hardeners

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:34 PM] especially in the uni

[3:34] smartbombs happen, uni members broadcast... fast

helioswipe moondraft [3:34 PM] you do have to manage your repairs, you're the one that can rep the new primary the fastest

Neonen [3:35 PM] ^

Sayod Physulem [3:35 PM] but when a new primary gets picked you don't have to manage your hardeners (edited)

[3:36] when you have to manage the first you don't have to manage the second and the other way around

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:36 PM] you will have a periode of max 10 seconds where you need to deal with both

Sayod Physulem [3:36 PM] so this is just not going to fly

[3:36] hardeners stay heated while you don't look at them did you know?

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:36 PM] so you burn them out

[3:36] congratz

helioswipe moondraft [3:36 PM] yup

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:37 PM] and my assumption here is you don't have a nestor or cap on grid to refit from :stuck_out_tongue:

Sayod Physulem [3:37 PM] come on are you really arguing that they will burn out in the 10 seconds where they switch away from you? (edited)

helioswipe moondraft [3:37 PM] not like you can refit

Lisa Nardieu [3:37 PM] so i made the terrible decision and opened pyfa....the moment you have three guards on grid you tank the the same dps on a prophecy as on a guard

Sayod Physulem [3:37 PM] because then you already heated for minutes (edited)

Lisa Nardieu [3:37 PM] this is three guard

helioswipe moondraft [3:37 PM] weapons timer stops that now :disappointed:

Lisa Nardieu [3:37 PM] and you bring normally more

Sayod Physulem [3:37 PM] no

Lisa Nardieu [3:37 PM] and you have other shit on grid, like vexors which tank less

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:38 PM] minutes? then you have a terrible opponent :stuck_out_tongue:

Sayod Physulem [3:38 PM] whc is 2 guardians most of the time, 3 guardians nearly as much and 4 guardians in very few cases

[3:38] 5 guardians is a rare sight - which we nearly had yesterday because of nnith if cassiel wouldn't have been catched before warp

[3:38] so we had 4 again

Lisa Nardieu [3:38 PM] https://zkillboard.com/related/31001191/201704202000/ zkillboard.com zKillboard.com / Related Kills | J152741 | 2017-04-20 20:00 A battle took place in J152741 (C-R00013) involving 54 pilots. Who lost a total of 4,152,827,111.18 isk

[3:39] talking about this

[3:39] you lost four guards

[3:39] i assume you had four guards on grid

[3:39] you didnt bring enough to keep your dps ships alive

[3:39] bring mor

Sayod Physulem [3:39 PM] uhm

[3:39] and who flies dps?

Lisa Nardieu [3:40 PM] the rest

[3:40] stop being terrible

[3:40] or take augs

Sayod Physulem [3:40 PM] you realize that we didn't have that many pilots?

[3:40] we are not a mega coalition

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:40 PM] i feel like i need to repeat myself

[3:41] "most people in this channel were in corps in w-space who bring 3-8 logi"

Sayod Physulem [3:41 PM] but not the whc

Lisa Nardieu [3:41 PM] so you took a fight you can not take, because you didnt had enough logi

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:41 PM] they were NOT in mega coalitions

Lisa Nardieu [3:41 PM] stop being bad (edited)

Sayod Physulem [3:41 PM] and we are talking about the whc bringing active or passive guardians

Lillik E [3:41 PM] Bling bad

Sayod Physulem [3:41 PM] and for the whc active guardians make more sense

Neonen [3:42 PM] But more active buttons make things complicated

[3:42] So I'd actually say: minimise the amount of buttons

[3:42] So you can focus on less but important buttons

Sayod Physulem [3:42 PM] also my hardeners take some time until they burn out - so if you want to argue that they might burn out because you didn't micro them then you are talking about minutes beeing primary

Lillik E [3:42 PM] But not red ones

Sayod Physulem [3:42 PM] and also minutes beeing primary where you can not keep your hardeners cool

[3:43]

Lamhoofd Hashur

minutes? then you have a terrible opponent :stuck_out_tongue: Posted in #whc-alumniToday at 3:38 PM

[3:44] so yes minutes otherwise your "oh no - so much micro" argument is invalid

[3:44] because you can just keep them heated for a bit more if you really don't have the time to press them once

Lamhoofd Hashur [3:44 PM] wut

Neonen [3:45 PM] Heat builds up faster than it cools off :thinking_face:

[3:45] So if you fight longer.. you inevitably burn out if you have to overheat in the first place

helioswipe moondraft [3:45 PM] still, the mistake that you overheat one cycle too much can easily happen

[3:45] and then you have no tank

Neonen [3:45 PM] ^That's my point as well

Sayod Physulem [3:45 PM] at some point yes - but this means that the overheat saved you in the first place

Neonen [3:45 PM] If you argue "Because WHC" I argue "KISS" :stuck_out_tongue:

Sayod Physulem [3:46 PM] otherwise you could just have kept them cold

Lisa Nardieu [3:46 PM] overheating shouldnt matter, because at that point you didnt had enough logi on grid

Sayod Physulem [3:46 PM] you don't overheat if you don't need it - so either you need it (congrats you are dead in a passive guard) or you don't need it, then you can also not burn them out

Lisa Nardieu [3:47 PM] overheating only matters to give the logi enough time to get the inital reps on you

Neonen [3:47 PM] ^

[3:47] It does shit against alpha

[3:47] Either the alpha is too high and you ded

[3:47] Or you have enough logi and can rep up. Also again, less butans to press

[3:48] Especially less frickle heat buttons

[3:48] CCP should rework that overheat thingy on modules :joy:

Sayod Physulem [3:48 PM] stop beeing bad and have a shortcut

[3:48] shift + click on module overheats

[3:48] by default I think

Neonen [3:48 PM] You click? :thinking_face:

Sayod Physulem [3:48 PM] are you talking about the green thing or not?

Neonen [3:49 PM] But no, you can overheat by accident

[3:49] Yes

Sayod Physulem [3:49 PM] because then you can just use shift and click on the entire module to overheat

Neonen [3:49 PM] Alphas can overheat. It's rather funny to hear a questioning voice over TS asking "Why are my guns grey?"

Sayod Physulem [3:49 PM] which is not a small button then

Neonen [3:50 PM] Overheating isn't really done in the tutorial ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[3:50] Or all the shortcuts acutally

Sayod Physulem [3:50 PM] jesus - the next thing you tell me is that you shouldn't keep up transversal because it isn't covered in the tutorial

[3:50] so you should only fly battleships

Neonen [3:50 PM] That is actually done Oo

[3:52] Still, I see more arguments speaking for passive than active tbh

[3:52] But eh, you do your stuff I guess

Mrakling [3:53 PM] Sayod, you're trying to change one of the most inflexible groups in the Uni. Good luck :stuck_out_tongue:

Neonen [3:53 PM] Like MWD Moas :sun:

[3:53] I am not uni :colbert:

Sayod Physulem [3:53 PM] what?

HyperFlareX [3:53 PM] wow

[3:53] you actually did it

[3:55] i hope you are proud of yourself neo

Lisa Nardieu [3:55 PM] there is nothing to change...my point is that the worse resist on a passive guardian do not matter, because in the case you need the higher resist of an active guard to keep you alive you did already make a huge mistake of not bringing enough guards to the fight

Sayod Physulem [3:56 PM] that is only a mistake if you have an infinite pool of pilots

[3:56] and why not just bring a cap guardian

[3:56] that solves your neut problem

[3:56] if we have infinite pilots anyway

HyperFlareX [3:56 PM] so we'Re saying

[3:56] just bring more guards?

Sayod Physulem [3:56 PM] lisa is saying that

Lisa Nardieu [3:57 PM] you need the extra guards already, to keep the t1 dps ships alive

Sayod Physulem [3:57 PM] sigh

Lisa Nardieu [3:57 PM] and you need the t1 dps ships alive, so they can kill the enemy

Sayod Physulem [3:57 PM] you have less guardians that rep guardians than guardians that rep dps

Lisa Nardieu [3:57 PM] no

Sayod Physulem [3:57 PM] because you can't lock yourself

[3:58] so you lock yourself?

Lisa Nardieu [3:58 PM] for three+ guards you rep your guards more than t1 shit

Neonen [3:58 PM] What did I do Hyper? :slightly_smiling_face:

[3:58] Revive a nice discussion between two walls?

Lisa Nardieu [3:58 PM] 2 guards will rep the third guard for more, than 3 guards will rep a t1 bc or cruiser

[3:59] and this does not include the less dps a guard takes because of sig tanking and being at range

Sayod Physulem [3:59 PM] nice - but why is that person flying a t1 ship in the first place? maybe because they can't fly a guardian?

[3:59] otherwise please fly a sac

[4:00] and the whc usually flies sacs

[4:00] but this was a nnith

[4:00] so this is a special case

Lisa Nardieu [4:00 PM] all the sac pilots should be able to fly guards

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:00 PM] let's fly a T3 instead :trollface:

helioswipe moondraft [4:00 PM] not everyone likes logi though

Lisa Nardieu [4:00 PM] and you still have t1 shit on grid because you have low sp pilots

helioswipe moondraft [4:01 PM] inb4 you say: "stop being bad and force them to fly logi"

Lisa Nardieu [4:01 PM] and they aree important, because you need dps to kill things

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:01 PM] nah helios

[4:01] the correct statement here is: just stop being poor

[4:01] skill injectors all the way

helioswipe moondraft [4:01 PM] ah

Sayod Physulem [4:01 PM] one more sac is better than one more guardian to rep that t1 ship if you want dps

helioswipe moondraft [4:01 PM] right, that's the problem :stuck_out_tongue:

[4:02] so new program: when accepted in whc, get enough skill injectors to fly a guard

Neonen [4:02 PM] Everyone says WHC is rich. You should do that to underline this assumption :smile: (edited)

Lisa Nardieu [4:02 PM] the moment you can fly a amarr hac

[4:02] you need sig analyse and long range targeting to v for a logi

helioswipe moondraft [4:03 PM] > not everyone likes logi though

Lisa Nardieu [4:03 PM] that is 12d max

Sayod Physulem [4:03 PM] you don't have logistics trained neccessarily

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:03 PM] stop being a baddy in that case

Sayod Physulem [4:03 PM] I heard there are alumni that have logi to 3 purposefully

[4:03] I wonder who that is

helioswipe moondraft [4:03 PM]

smile:

[4:03] > logi 3

[4:03] heretics

Neonen [4:04 PM] Well, not me

[4:04] Just not Amarr Cruiser V :wink:

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:04 PM] (2KB)

Sayod Physulem [4:05 PM] I think it was narthe or urban ore someone that was in the whc around that time they were both in the uni a year or so ago

[4:05] but might be someone else

helioswipe moondraft [4:05 PM] or new requirement for whc: Logi V and Amarr cruiser V

Titus Tallang [4:05 PM] siernan

Neonen [4:05 PM] ^

[4:06] https://evewho.com/pilot/Siernan evewho.com Eve Who - Pilot - Siernan EveWho.com - Eve Online Corporation and Alliance member listings.

[4:06] Hmmm

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:06 PM] If it's Urban or Narthe i'll torture them

Neonen [4:06 PM] Shit? :slightly_smiling_face:

Titus Tallang [4:06 PM] siernan is the person that has logi 3

helioswipe moondraft [4:06 PM] Can I watch lam?

Neonen [4:06 PM] They both have Logi to at LEAST IV

[4:06] I think they even had V during their last time in WHC

helioswipe moondraft [4:07 PM] doesn't matter for narthe though, he's just FUCKING RAIDING IN WOW YOU HERETIC

Neonen [4:07 PM] True

[4:07] Torture him please Lam

Sayod Physulem [4:08 PM] point is: there are people that can fly sacs but not guardians :stuck_out_tongue: and they don't even have to be new for that

Neonen [4:08 PM] No, they are dicks

[4:08] And should be shot

[4:08] Srsly

helioswipe moondraft [4:08 PM] seems like they are :snowflake:

[4:08]

wink:

Mrakling [4:08 PM] How about no.

Sayod Physulem [4:08 PM] but who flies sac then? we don't have > an infinite pool of pilots

[4:08] wtb infinite pool of pilots btw

Neonen [4:09 PM] wtb less stawman arguments at this point

Sayod Physulem [4:09 PM] if you argue that we should just bring more guards?

Neonen [4:10 PM] You have enough pilots on grid, just not enough logi

[4:10] Sooooo

[4:10] The next logical step would be to punch everyone in the dick that CAN fly a guard but goes lolnope.

Sayod Physulem [4:10 PM] no we couldn't break anything that was not t1 (edited)

helioswipe moondraft [4:10 PM] care to try neonen?

[4:10]

slightly_smiling_face:

Neonen [4:11 PM] Nah, that's why I left helio :wink:

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:11 PM] you're arguing that you need the resists on guards, while half of your fleet can be killed bc their EHP/s repped is lower with 3 guards vs 2 guards (which would rep another guard)

Sayod Physulem [4:11 PM] well at least that is what I got told when I asked them why they didn't shoot the ecm and neuts

[4:11] because that was killing us

[4:11] not anything else

Neonen [4:12 PM] So the error lies somewhere else as well. Not the lack of DPS but maybe the focus as well. :slightly_smiling_face:

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:12 PM] in reality they could have picked off any T1 ship and shot it down w/o a problem

Sayod Physulem [4:12 PM] and no hardeners didn't went offline we simply couldn't rep

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:12 PM] the fact that they shot a guardian instead, really just means you didn't have enough logi

[4:12] since they could have killed either ship anyway

Sayod Physulem [4:13 PM] not neccessarily but in this case probably

[4:14] but this just proves the point: we don't have enough pilots

[4:14] because putting more people into guardians wouldn't have done anything if they weren't able to break stuff already

[4:15] we maybe shouldn't have taken the fight

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:15 PM] but here is the difference, wrt the fleet last night, your fleet comp was insufficient, it is however not a good argument in favor of active guardians

Sayod Physulem [4:15 PM] but putting more people in guards is not the solution

helioswipe moondraft [4:15 PM] then not taking the fight is the solution

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:16 PM] or use other means, use ECM to jam out DPS, works wonders :stuck_out_tongue:

Sayod Physulem [4:17 PM] sure yesterday it didn't really matter if you had an active or passive guardian - tylenos survived because of hardeners and then died because of hardeners

[4:17] but in most cases for the whc

[4:17] we only bring very few guardians together with sacs and overheat matters

[4:18] yesterday was nnith - it is not representative of everyday situations

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:18 PM] 4. maybe cap chain up and down instead of using broadcasts. I am not sure on that one actually.

just a quick question

[4:18] what do u mean with this in ur post?

Sayod Physulem [4:19 PM] well we were all V so we saved the second CT for utility/broadcasts (edited)

Analiese Aubernet [4:19 PM] Our fleet comp was bad, hence why I put the fleet on a lowsec connection

[4:19] So we could not all die

Sayod Physulem [4:19 PM] maybe just transferring up and down would have been more stable

[4:19] I don't know

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:19 PM] if you get in range of neuts i urge you to use up & down

[4:20] the utility is not worth it when the whole fleet dies instead :stuck_out_tongue:

Sayod Physulem [4:20 PM] well the utility is used for broadcasts so also for guards that get neuted, but I think I agree that up and down would have worked better

[4:21] because while putting the extra cap where it is actually needed sounds good on paper it is nearly impossible to manage that in practice

Kermit Pental [4:21 PM] (2MB)

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:21 PM] and it is another thing to micro manage :slightly_smiling_face:

helioswipe moondraft [4:21 PM] SURPRISE

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:22 PM] if you do it with broadcasts

Sayod Physulem [4:22 PM] yeah that aswell

[4:22] but broadcasts would probably happen if you go up and down

Kermit Pental [4:22 PM] We having the good old Logi argument again?

Sayod Physulem [4:22 PM] so should you just stay up and down or give cap to broadcasting guards then?

Titus Tallang [4:22 PM] left #whc-alumni

helioswipe moondraft [4:22 PM] tell people to either use missiles or projectiles guns

[4:23]

troll:

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:23 PM] just stay up and down imo

[4:23] this is assuming guards in general are being neuted

helioswipe moondraft [4:23 PM] titus.tallang stop being bad

Sayod Physulem [4:23 PM] well usually they focus on one guard and move on

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:23 PM] if the neut pressure is barely there, you need to know which ET to let go and respond to broadcasts

Sayod Physulem [4:23 PM] I would guess

[4:23] but it is hard to track that I guess

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:24 PM] there is a difference between a bhaal being 20km away from you and 40km away :wink:

Sayod Physulem [4:24 PM] we were all kinda close

Lisa Nardieu [4:24 PM] left #whc-alumni

Sayod Physulem [4:24 PM] as we sat on the hole

Neonen [4:24 PM] left #whc-alumni

Sayod Physulem [4:24 PM] at some point

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:24 PM] at which point up & down was a good idea

Sayod Physulem [4:25 PM] @neonen.enderas and you are back

Neonen [4:25 PM] joined #whc-alumni by invitation from @sayodphysulem

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:25 PM] in SSC we even had guard which were 3 ETs and 3 Reps

[4:25] 1 up, 1 down and 1 for neuts/broadcasts

Kermit Pental [4:25 PM] https://youtu.be/-NVnUy0JH3A YouTube wrynnaMMMCCXIV 99 Things to do in EvE: Whelping but not Whelping

Sayod Physulem [4:26 PM] yeah but a cap guard only makes sense if you have enough normal guards already and I suspect that is not 2-4 guards

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:26 PM] no no no

Kermit Pental [4:26 PM] ^can hear me telling the other logi to move ETs around due to neuts and cap requirements

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:26 PM] these were not cap guardians :stuck_out_tongue:

Sayod Physulem [4:26 PM] oh right 3 ET

[4:26] misread

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:26 PM] we also had 6 ET guards

[4:26] which are indeed cap guards

Kermit Pental [4:27 PM] Well we had 6 when people put them back in the right place after using them

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:27 PM] but the 3/3 setup were very much meant for engagements where heavy neuting was expected, but we also wanted to feed our own neuts

Kermit Pental [4:27 PM] twitches

Sayod Physulem [4:28 PM] makes sense - just that we rarely face so many neuts

Analiese Aubernet [4:28 PM] They had significant neuting pressure

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:28 PM] that's why my argument was not to change them to 3/3 guards :stuck_out_tongue:

Analiese Aubernet [4:28 PM] Bhaalgorn + 3 neuting legion

Sayod Physulem [4:28 PM] yeah this was the first time I was actually cap dry in a guard

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:28 PM] since you don't normally have 4 bhaalgorns and 6 neut legions in your fleet :smile:

Sayod Physulem [4:28 PM] and people died because of no cap

[4:30] so this was certainly interesting - but we didn't die because of no hardeners but because of no reps which enforced my belief that for the whc the situation where active guards die when passive don't is less likely than the opposite

[4:30] even though it might be different for other corporations

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:31 PM] i've fc'd situations before where we had neuts and a bit of ecm, we were facing roughly 5 guardians against us

Sayod Physulem [4:31 PM] 5 guardians is already more than we ever use from day to day (not even yesterday - as cass died)

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:31 PM] what you do at that point is as follow: 1. you neut out 2 guardians for sure 2. you ECM 2 other guardians 3. you neut if they have active hardeners and primary the 5th guardian

[4:32] this is not my fleet :wink:

[4:32] this is how you deal with the other fleet

Sayod Physulem [4:32 PM] yes

[4:32] but that means ewar is last on the primary right?

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:33 PM] no, EWAR doesn't touch the primary at all

Sayod Physulem [4:33 PM] so active hardeners don't go offline because of neuts

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:33 PM] and my hope is that you are dead, before your friends can lock u again bc of a missed ECM

[4:33] neuts <> EWAR for me

[4:33] EWAR = jams and sensor disruptors :stuck_out_tongue:

[4:33] neuts = neuts

Sayod Physulem [4:34 PM] ewar is everything that is not a gun bot hostile for me

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:34 PM] i classify neuts seperately bc of capital warfare :slightly_smiling_face:

helioswipe moondraft [4:35 PM] I see neuts and EWAR also as a separate thing, it's also separated ingame

Sayod Physulem [4:35 PM] but still if you can ecm 2 guards and neut two guards you would do that on the guards that are not the primary

[4:35] because then the guardian is dead if they are active or not

[4:35] no gamble

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:35 PM] primarily yes, until the cap chain is disrupted enough and you can take the primary as well

Sayod Physulem [4:36 PM] well and then they are dead already

[4:36] so the passive guard doesn't survive longer than the active in that case

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:36 PM] that's the funny thing, because ECM isn't a guarantee, a passive guardian might be able to survive

[4:36] an active guard will drop within seconds

Sayod Physulem [4:36 PM] well but heat might also save the primary when you ecm the other guards

[4:37] so you can have both cases really (edited)

helioswipe moondraft [4:37 PM] he also neuts the primary if it has active hards, right?

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:37 PM] but if a guardian is active i -as FC- would not shoot it until it is completely dry

Sayod Physulem [4:38 PM] if the primary is dry the other guards would be dry aswell though if you start with the other guards

[4:38] which then means that any passive guardian is dead aswell

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:38 PM] no, because we are ECMing 2 guards

[4:38] which is chance based

helioswipe moondraft [4:39 PM] 2 guards are neuted, 2 guards are ECM'd and 1 is getting primaried

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:39 PM] the situation becomes more interesting when the 4 of these guards are passive and 1 is active

[4:39] because your weak link becomes the active one then

[4:40] @lisa_nardieu @kermitpental u have the Xtrah went on military duty thingie video?

[4:41] because I have been in that situation where i was the only active guard in the fleet

[4:41] and we lost due to that

Sayod Physulem [4:41 PM] if you don't get incoming CT you can't rep though so the ECMed guards won't do much if they happen to not be ECMed for one cycle

Lisa Nardieu [4:41 PM] https://zkillboard.com/related/30003735/201412292200/ zkillboard.com zKillboard.com / Related Kills | PI5-39 | 2014-12-29 22:00 A battle took place in PI5-39 (Providence) involving 146 pilots. Who lost a total of 7,420,348,275.33 isk

Sayod Physulem [4:43 PM] and sure there are cases where that might happen - but they are less likely than the situations where the dps is only bearable with heat

[4:43] wich happend three times to me already

Lisa Nardieu [4:44 PM] you shouldnt be in a position of needing to heat the hardeners on a guard

[4:44] because at that point your fleetcomp sucks

Sayod Physulem [4:44 PM] one time was the "solcan couldn't count" fleet - where people died all around but I survived that

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:44 PM] that was prob more due to our incompetence to kill u :stuck_out_tongue:

Neonen [4:44 PM] That was because "Let's alpha dem Bhaals first. More worth ISK"

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:44 PM] "Who the fuck bumped the primary?"

helioswipe moondraft [4:45 PM] yay for dread tracking at that time :stuck_out_tongue:

[4:45] and splitting them up in 2 groups, tryhards :smile:

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:45 PM] killbox ftw

Sayod Physulem [4:46 PM] yes we lost when all the bhaals were dead already - but I still survived after that because of hardeners

Lamhoofd Hashur [4:47 PM] that was prob more due to our incompetence to kill u

Sayod Physulem [4:47 PM] that guardian wouldn't have lived without hardeners, and I had similar situations 2 more times

[4:47] while I never died because of hardeners

[4:47] so while both situations are possible

[4:48] I would say that for the whc the dps situation is more likely

helioswipe moondraft [4:48 PM] hard to die because of hardeners, those are supposed to keep you alive :stuck_out_tongue:

Sayod Physulem [4:48 PM] if they are offline then you can die because they take the slots that passive modules could have taken :wink:

[4:49] so you would die because of hardeners

helioswipe moondraft [4:49 PM] you died because of no cap :slightly_smiling_face:

Sayod Physulem [4:50 PM] whatever

helioswipe moondraft [4:51 PM] you died because you logged into eve? :wink:

Sayod Physulem [4:51 PM] probably

Sayod Physulem [5:08 PM] There you go Kyle Hargrove Good point! Can we get a showdown of @titus.tallang vs some passive Guard believer to record them on a Wiki page? Posted in #whc-alumniToday at 2:23 PM

[5:08] copy it before it gets lost in scrollback and we have to have this again