User talk:Devalt Yotosala/Sandbox1/Template:Infobox refiner

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This is the best place to give feedback on the proposed Perfect Refiner Template. Arin Mara (talk) 11:24, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

A few things that poped-up in my mind.
  • Do we want the mains name ore the actual refiners name "on top"?
  • I imagine that when looking for a refiner people will be looking for location first an and skills second, is it wise to have those collapsed then?
  • Nitpicking: Perfect skills are by definition on V, so no need to put that in.(Edit: I meant the V in the content, not the block)
  • There a non perfect refiners on the list now. Do we need a block for the non-perfect skills?
  • Maybe a Notes option for stuff that does not fit any of the other options?
-- Evon R'al (talk) 11:50, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
  • I think we want the mains, as that's likely to be the name that will serve as the point of contact.
  • My concern with the skills and locations blocks are the potential for how large those could get, hence why I have them set to be collapsed by default. If consensus moves against that, it can be changed.
  • That's the content section, so there's no real restrictions as to what goes in there
  • I, personally, don't think that's necessary. People are here for perfect refining after all, not imperfect refining. Again, if consensus disagrees, I'm happy to add the block.
  • I think that the instructions section would be able to cover that, unless others also disagree.
--Devalt Yotosala (talk) 14:23, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Throwing in some ideas:
  • When keeping the main on top maybe rename the Alt Name block to refiner?
  • Agree with the large box argument for the Location and Skills, but when they are collapsed a user is forced to open them all to get to the info they are looking for.
  • That's why a said "nitpicking" :)
  • Agree with that. But the Perfect Refine List has a not insubstantial amount of 'Pretty Good"refiners on it. So management has to say something about that.
  • That is a very acceptable solution for me
--Evon R'al (talk) 14:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Agreed. I'll make the change to refiner.
  • It's not particularly different than the existing {{Infobox coordinator}} where skillset, and potentially playtimes, and {{Infobox Mentors}} where skillset, playtime, and bio are all boxed, because of variable length content.
  • I think it's preferable for the infobox to focus on Perfect Refining skills. This is a somewhat privileged list, with those on it getting 0% refine at Ivy Structures. Many of those on the "pretty good" list have enough Vs to qualify to be on Perfect Refine, and frankly no one who is using this list to maximize their yield is looking for someone with only IVs.
--Devalt Yotosala (talk) 23:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

From Anidien Dallacort:
  • How do we fill out the template, if the Uni Main IS the refining character?
  • I do enjoy how clean the template is. All the same, there is a drawback compared to the current Perfect Refine List's format - if I have a bunch of "Simple Ore" to refine, I can "Ctrl+F" on the current page, to find - and have highlighted - the individual refiners who have that specific skill. The template hides the skills in a collapsed box, which is not findable on the page using Ctrl+F, unless you expand all the boxes. I love the look of the template - but I'm not sure what going to this format gains in terms of finding the right refiner for the right ore versus the current format, in terms of functionality.
  • I'm for having a separate section for imperfect skills. Some people have V in a bunch of skills but IV in a few and people accept that for one or two ore types because they are the only ones available. Additionally, people training into perfect refiner can populate their skills and update over the year as the refine skills come home.
  • Further clarifying my notes on this - anyone on the list and getting reduced taxes should have SOME perfect skills in my opinion (not an official decision because it's not mine to make, just an individual opinion) - but I don't see the harm in listing the IV level skills they have if they have several V's. How often do we really need "Exceptional Moon Ore Processing V", and should someone not be on the list because they don't have that one? I can see just leaving that skill off their template entirely if it's not V - so I'm not married to the concept of having a 'near perfect' template section - but I don't see a ton of harm in it either.
  • Note section would be good. For example, my cost for refining is 10,000 ISK to cover the return contract, and any refining fees are passed on in the return contract. For Uni structure refining those costs are 0, but I have been approached by people in the past about doing refining in NPC stations or other structures - so the cost would be more than 10k. Rather than fattening up the "Cost" box in the template, having a freeform box to explain this (and other particulars) would be good.
  • If the main is the refining character, the alt/refiner doesn't need to be filled in. The section won't be there if you don't give it info.
  • That's a good point I hadn't really considered - I'll do some more thinking on that
  • Sorry if I wasn't clear - yeah, the idea is that a "perfect" refiner would have at least a couple of V skills - if you look at the page now, a lot of the "perfects" don't have all Vs and that's okay. "Pretty Good" refiners don't have V skills, in the sort of parlance I'm going for. If the skill isn't perfect, they wouldn't add it.
  • There's an instructions that should accommodate what you're looking for - and for the specific need of adding fees, 10,000K ISK + Fees would probably fit just fine.
  • A bit of an aside here, but if you end your message with four tilde's, the wiki will insert your name and a time stamp. The top of the edit box also has a button that can do this for you.
--Devalt Yotosala (talk) 19:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Proposal - two tier implementation

Assume there are three dimensions you want to display:

  • skills - finite and repeating
  • location - finite and repeating
  • capsuleer who provides the service - there are an infinite number of unique identifiers


  • maximize searchability of skills

For the first tier create a table where rows are skills, columns are locations and cells are links to a nested page named after a capsuleer:

NullSec HighSec LowSec WormSec
Noxitum Processing Anidien, Devalt Anidien Arin
Trilium Processing Devalt Arin Arin, Devalt, Evon
Puffium Processing Anidien

Alt, payment, contract, implant and other information is hidden behind a link to a nested page named after a capsuleer. The second tier, the nested pages must have a consistent naming scheme and a template that captures all information, including skills, location and the capsuleer who provides the service. The User:Devalt_Yotosala/Sandbox1/Template:Infobox_refiner is a way to capture the information.

The second tier, nested pages, can be show using an automated and dynamic template {{list subpages}} next to the first tier, table.

Implementation trade-offs and decisions:

  • how do you handle sub-perfect refiners and IV skills - Double the amount of rows? State skill level next to capsuleer name in table cell? Create a second table?
  • how large is the table cell going to get and how do you collapse it - Use tooltip? HTML <div> collapsible?

If you want to proceed with the nested page implementation, I'll make a statement that would allow you to implement it since I strictly forbid creating nested pages. Arin Mara (talk) 09:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I think keeping imperfect skills off the page, rather than doubling a table, would be the way to go. When hidden in a collapsed template there was more sense to including them. If the result is a big table, just keep the IV's off the page.
I don't suppose there's a way to create a filter drop down for Wiki use? --Anidien Dallacort (talk) 15:14, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm concerned the table will have too much cognitive load for the end user. Instead of looking to see if a given refiner can match the needs of a user, the user must now keep track of the names in each category and cross reference those names against their needs to get a unified list of potential characters. --Devalt Yotosala (talk) 23:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Is it possible to break the original template into multiple rows - "Asteroid Ores", "Moon Ores", "Other" - then just type freeform into those boxes, which are at level V? There's only what, five types in any one category? We could use just simple text and only the single descriptive word, rather than linking to the full skill name - e.g. fill out the "Moon Ore" section of the template with "Ubiquitous, Common, Uncommon, Rare, Exceptional". And don't hide these three sections in an expand box, just leave them as text on the profile.
If I were handier with wiki I'd draft up the actual example. But basically the template on Devalt's sandbox right now has sections "Alt Name" , "Locations" , "Perfect Skills", "4% Implant", etc. Replace that with "Alt Name", "Locations", "Asteroid Ores" , "Moon Ores" , "Other Types", "4% Implant", etc.
It keeps the page searchable while retaining the clean look of the template. Drawbacks are that people can make typos on the template - and if the skills change again, the links don't break (e.g. right now it's REALLY easy to see who hasn't updated their refiner profile since December). I don't think the skills changing are going to be a frequent thing, though. --Anidien Dallacort (talk) 18:01, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Making skill rows more granular is an interesting solution. However, the Infobox would still be tall if the information isn't collapsed. I don't mind it.
Skill names should be checked, their formatting enforced and the order of skills consistent. Making information machine readable is a huge boon. Arin Mara (talk) 20:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
A filter drop down for Wiki tables currently does not exist. Perhaps there is an extension, but installing any extension involves calling in Bates to install it. Arin Mara (talk) 20:10, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

If/Then If/Then Template

So how about a new template, that takes in arguments for each ore/reprocessing type in a category (Asteroid, Moon, and Other), and spits out a shortened version of the ore name in the subdivided template field?

This is totally not wiki object formatting, but something like {Moon Ore = Ubiquitous [Yes/No] ; Common [Yes/No] ; Uncommon [Yes/No] ; Rare [Yes/No] ; Exceptional [Yes/No]} - and someone using the template in terms of {Moon Ore = Yes ; Yes ; Yes ; Yes ; Yes} would have their moon ore section appear as "Ubiquitous, Common, Uncommon, Rare, Exceptional". Someone with the template {Moon Ore = Yes ; Yes ; No ; No ; Yes} would have the output of "Ubiquitous, Common, Exceptional".

I'm not sure if this "if/then" type template is possible, but it would: - Keep the ores in the same order on every profile - Link back to the full skill (the words could be links back to the skill page) - Avoid typos in the ore names - Shorten the text displayed while retaining the links - e.g. "Ubiquitous" instead of "Ubiquitous Moon Ore Processing V". --Anidien Dallacort (talk) 23:18, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I broke off this into a separate topic. Evon already got you covered with a bunch of great mock-ups. Arin Mara (talk) 14:00, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the "Suppress Unknown Skills" mock up is right along the lines of what I was trying to describe hehe. --Anidien Dallacort (talk) 14:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Template Goals

I suspect part of the problem here is that we don't have a clearly defined set of goals for what this template is meant to accomplish. I think there is some merit to discussing what exactly we want to prioritize in the design of the template.

Some thoughts:

  • Readability - How easy it is for a lay person to get the knowledge needed by reading the page
  • Searchability - How easy it is for a lay person to get the knowledge needed via a browser search function
  • Visual Clarity - How clearly the information is organized and presented
  • Consistency - How consistent each entry will be
  • Maintainability - How easy it will be for future wiki staff to understand and maintain
  • Ease of Use - How easy it will be for refiners to add to the page
  • Recognition vs Recall - How much a user can visually recognize vs need to recall to use the page effectively

I recognize there may be some overlap here - this is just a list of potential criteria or priorities. Additional criteria or other thoughts are welcome. --Devalt Yotosala (talk) 23:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I like the requirements - and love the approach. I'll put some thought into it, but right out of the gate, I would add the refiners themselves to the maintainability category - how easy is it for them to update their own profile? --Anidien Dallacort (talk) 17:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
When I proposed the project I purposefully left it vague to indicate that it is up to the editor who will implement the Project to decide the trade-offs. Remember, Cost Of Perfection Is Infinite. It is much more important to complete the project, than to give up because you couldn't achieve all your stated goals.
I'm excited to see what you'll pick and how the final implementation will look like! Arin Mara (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Maybe we should let go of the {{Infobox}} template for this and use a dedicated template? I did a couple of rough mock-ups on my draft page. --Evon R'al (talk) 14:21, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
Mock-ups look great! They are styled like the current Perfect Refiner Page, the text is CTRL+F searchable and the table looks good on mobile phone. Unused vertical space is an artifact of large resolutions, so no worries there. The mock-ups stack well, one on top of the other. I like the no-image-and-show-all-skills mock the most: the image distracts me and hiding skills doesn't save on space, bu does make my eyes dart around.
Both the Infobox and the mock-up implementation place capsuleers at the center of attention rather than refining skills. There's absolutely nothing with with that. After all, the Page is called Perfect Refiners not Perfect Refining Skills.
Devalt, take a look, make the decision, state the trade-offs, document the Template, send it for a final technical review before publishing and finally put all the Perfect Refiner information into the newly made Template. Arin Mara (talk) 13:53, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
Unfortunately showing all skills, regardless of their level, breaks the use of CTRL+F because then all refiners have all skills. While a user is only interested in high refining skills. For that we should set a limit of when to show, only V or maybe V and IV. The only way I see, at the moment, to put the skills at the center would be a list/table with the skills with links to the refiners. That however would give 2 places where the info needs to be synchronized. And for "larger" numbers of refiners that will lead to a rather big list. --Evon R'al (talk) 14:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
I like the suppress unknown skills template, and agree a limit of V - or IV and V - is what we are looking for here. --Anidien Dallacort (talk) 14:23, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
Please elaborate on how the CTRL+F breaks. Perhaps an important detail slipped my mind.
If I CTRL+F "Abyssal Ore Processing", yes it will highlight all Refiners. However, I'll CTRL+F "Abyssal Ore Processing V" or "Abyssal Ore Processing IV" and then it'll only highlight those Refiners that have those skills. All other skills will have their names displayed, but not their levels.
The only problem I foresee is CTRL+F-ing for "Abyssal Ore Processing I" which will than highlight "Abyssal Ore Processing IV" and "II" and "III", but we are only discussing displaying V and IV skills.
Let's table the discussion about how to create a Page that will also be in sync with the Perfect Refiner List Page. As Evon pointed out, it may conflict with the Maintain A Single Source Of Truth. Arin Mara (talk) 17:02, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
The way the mock-up's are constructed now the skill name and the level are in different table cells. Therefore adding the level to the skill does not work. I will look into that some more as I am not completely happy with the way it works yet. --Evon R'al (talk) 18:12, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
I see! Hmm... very well! Since you've invested so much effort into the Project implementation I've found it fitting to add you to the list of Project editors. Arin Mara (talk) 19:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
I know I'm too lazy to CTRL+F "Abyssal Ore Processing V". I'd rather just CTRL+F "Abyssal". That's why I like the suppress unknown skills template Evon has. It takes the CTRL+F "hit" out of the refiner who doesn't have level V (or IV) in that skill. It also simultaneously searches IV and V, if we use near-perfect. We set the rules for the page that you can't enter a level below IV or V (depending on the final route taken). I also 100% agree with not creating two sources of the same data. Though Arin totally missed out on an opportunity to ask us to "table the discussion on the table" --Anidien Dallacort (talk) 05:35, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
HAHAHAHHAHAHHA Welp. I'm sure there will be another golden opportunity to play with word tables. :P Arin Mara (talk) 19:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
Agreed. I like that design and the dedicated template. Evon, once the template is in a state you're happy with, let me know and we can move on with the remaining steps in the project. --Devalt Yotosala (talk) 22:05, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
I have been "playing" with the template. The detailed skills are on there twice now for comparison. The first option has the skills always in the same position. This leaves "holes" for the non perfect skills. The second option has the skills always in the same order without the holes. See this demo. Tel me what you think about it, which do you prefer? Also the image should we keep it or remove it from the card? As far as I can see it is just eye candy and does not add any information. --Evon R'al (talk) 13:39, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Let's go with the skills always being in the same position - it'll let people build muscle memory when it comes to determining the skills a refiner has. We can also keep the image - you're right in that it is just eye candy, but given the template format, it's not really consuming any space that could be better prioritized. --Devalt Yotosala (talk) 16:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
I like same position also - the holes are fine, they are self explanatory. I also like the pictures as a clear visual break between refiners. --Anidien Dallacort (talk) 21:25, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
RC1 is ready. Demo and template. Have a look at the documentation please? --Evon R'al (talk) 14:58, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Template in production. --Evon R'al (talk) 13:26, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Woohoo! That's going straight into the next State of the Wiki Report! Arin Mara (talk) 21:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)