User talk:Devalt Yotosala/Sandbox1/Template:Infobox refiner: Difference between revisions

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VisualWikitext

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 Goals:
 * maximize searchability of skills
-*
 For the first tier [https://www.tablesgenerator.com/mediawiki_tables create a table where rows are skills, columns are locations and cells are links to a nested page named after a capsuleer]:
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-I think keeping imperfect skills off the page, rather than doubling a table, would be the way to go.  When hidden in a collapsed template there was more sense to including them.  If the result is a big table, just keep the IV's off the page.
+: I think keeping imperfect skills off the page, rather than doubling a table, would be the way to go.  When hidden in a collapsed template there was more sense to including them.  If the result is a big table, just keep the IV's off the page.
+: I don't suppose there's a way to create a filter drop down for Wiki use? --[[User:Anidien Dallacort|Anidien Dallacort]] ([[User talk:Anidien Dallacort|talk]]) 15:14, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
-I don't suppose there's a way to create a filter drop down for Wiki use? --[[User:Anidien Dallacort|Anidien Dallacort]] ([[User talk:Anidien Dallacort|talk]]) 15:14, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
+: I'm concerned the table will have too much cognitive load for the end user. Instead of looking to see if a given refiner can match the needs of a user, the user must now keep track of the names in each category and cross reference those names against their needs to get a unified list of potential characters. --[[User:Devalt Yotosala|Devalt Yotosala]] ([[User talk:Devalt Yotosala|talk]]) 23:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
-: I'm concerned the table will have too much cognitive load for the end user. Instead of looking to see if a given refiner can match the needs of a user, the user must now keep track of the names in each category and cross reference those names against their needs to get a unified list of potential characters.
+:: Is it possible to break the original template into multiple rows - "Asteroid Ores", "Moon Ores", "Other" - then just type freeform into those boxes, which are at level V?  There's only what, five types in any one category?  We could use just simple text and only the single descriptive word, rather than linking to the full skill name - e.g. fill out the "Moon Ore" section of the template with "Ubiquitous, Common, Uncommon, Rare, Exceptional".  And don't hide these three sections in an expand box, just leave them as text on the profile.
+:: If I were handier with wiki I'd draft up the actual example.  But basically the template on Devalt's sandbox right now has sections "Alt Name" , "Locations" , "Perfect Skills", "4% Implant", etc.  Replace that with "Alt Name", "Locations", "Asteroid Ores" , "Moon Ores" , "Other Types", "4% Implant", etc.
+:: It keeps the page searchable while retaining the clean look of the template.  Drawbacks are that people can make typos on the template - and if the skills change again, the links don't break (e.g. right now it's REALLY easy to see who hasn't updated their refiner profile since December).  I don't think the skills changing are going to be a frequent thing, though.  --[[User:Anidien Dallacort|Anidien Dallacort]] ([[User talk:Anidien Dallacort|talk]]) 18:01, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
---[[User:Devalt Yotosala|Devalt Yotosala]] ([[User talk:Devalt Yotosala|talk]]) 23:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
+::: Making skill rows more granular is an interesting solution. However, the Infobox would still be tall if the information isn't collapsed. I don't mind it.
+::: Skill names should be checked, their formatting enforced and the order of skills consistent. Making information machine readable is a huge boon. [[User:Arin Mara|Arin Mara]] ([[User talk:Arin Mara|talk]]) 20:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
+: A filter drop down for Wiki tables currently does not exist. Perhaps there is an extension, but installing any extension involves calling in Bates to install it. [[User:Arin Mara|Arin Mara]] ([[User talk:Arin Mara|talk]]) 20:10, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
+== If/Then If/Then Template ==
+So how about a new template, that takes in arguments for each ore/reprocessing type in a category (Asteroid, Moon, and Other), and spits out a shortened version of the ore name in the subdivided template field?
+This is totally not wiki object formatting, but something like {Moon Ore = Ubiquitous [Yes/No] ; Common [Yes/No] ; Uncommon [Yes/No] ; Rare [Yes/No] ; Exceptional [Yes/No]} - and someone using the template in terms of {Moon Ore = Yes ; Yes ; Yes ; Yes ; Yes} would have their moon ore section appear as "Ubiquitous, Common, Uncommon, Rare, Exceptional".  Someone with the template {Moon Ore = Yes ; Yes ; No ; No ; Yes} would have the output of "Ubiquitous, Common, Exceptional".
+I'm not sure if this "if/then" type template is possible, but it would:
+- Keep the ores in the same order on every profile
+- Link back to the full skill (the words could be links back to the skill page)
+- Avoid typos in the ore names
+- Shorten the text displayed while retaining the links - e.g. "Ubiquitous" instead of "Ubiquitous Moon Ore Processing V".
+--[[User:Anidien Dallacort|Anidien Dallacort]] ([[User talk:Anidien Dallacort|talk]]) 23:18, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
+: I broke off this into a separate topic. Evon already got you covered with a [https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/index.php?title=User:Evon_R%27al/Draft&oldid=189773 bunch of great mock-ups]. [[User:Arin Mara|Arin Mara]] ([[User talk:Arin Mara|talk]]) 14:00, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
+Yes, the "Suppress Unknown Skills" mock up is right along the lines of what I was trying to describe hehe. --[[User:Anidien Dallacort|Anidien Dallacort]] ([[User talk:Anidien Dallacort|talk]]) 14:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 == Template Goals ==
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 * Recognition vs Recall - How much a user can visually recognize vs need to recall to use the page effectively
-I recognize there may be some overlap here - this is just a list of potential criteria or priorities. Additional criteria or other thoughts are welcome.
+I recognize there may be some overlap here - this is just a list of potential criteria or priorities. Additional criteria or other thoughts are welcome. --[[User:Devalt Yotosala|Devalt Yotosala]] ([[User talk:Devalt Yotosala|talk]]) 23:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
+: I like the requirements - and love the approach.  I'll put some thought into it, but right out of the gate, I would add the refiners themselves to the maintainability category - how easy is it for them to update their own profile? --[[User:Anidien Dallacort|Anidien Dallacort]] ([[User talk:Anidien Dallacort|talk]]) 17:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
+:: When I proposed the project I purposefully left it vague to indicate that it is up to the editor who will implement the Project to decide the trade-offs. Remember, [[UniWiki:Welcome#UniWiki_ideals|Cost Of Perfection Is Infinite]]. It is much more important to complete the project, than to give up because you couldn't achieve all your stated goals.
+:: I'm excited to see what you'll pick and how the final implementation will look like! [[User:Arin Mara|Arin Mara]] ([[User talk:Arin Mara|talk]]) 19:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
+: Maybe we should let go of the {{T|Infobox}} template for this and use a dedicated template? I did a couple of rough [https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/index.php?title=User:Evon_R%27al/Draft&oldid=189748 mock-ups] on my draft page. --[[User:Evon R&#39;al|Evon R&#39;al]] ([[User talk:Evon R&#39;al|talk]]) 14:21, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
+:: Mock-ups look great! They are styled like the current Perfect Refiner Page, the text is CTRL+F searchable and the table looks good on mobile phone. Unused vertical space is an artifact of large resolutions, so no worries there. The mock-ups stack well, one on top of the other. I like the no-image-and-show-all-skills mock the most: the image distracts me and hiding skills doesn't save on space, bu does make my eyes dart around.
+:: Both the Infobox and the mock-up implementation place capsuleers at the center of attention rather than refining skills. There's absolutely nothing with with that. After all, the Page is called Perfect Refiners not Perfect Refining Skills.
+:: Devalt, take a look, make the decision, state the trade-offs, document the Template, send it for a final technical review before publishing and finally put all the Perfect Refiner information into the newly made Template. [[User:Arin Mara|Arin Mara]] ([[User talk:Arin Mara|talk]]) 13:53, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
+::: Unfortunately showing all skills, regardless of their level, breaks the use of CTRL+F because then all refiners have all skills. While a user is only interested in high refining skills. For that we should set a limit of when to show, only V or maybe V and IV. The only way I see, at the moment, to put the skills at the center would be a list/table with the skills with links to the refiners. That however would give 2 places where the info needs to be synchronized. And for "larger" numbers of refiners that will lead to a rather big list. --[[User:Evon R&#39;al|Evon R&#39;al]] ([[User talk:Evon R&#39;al|talk]]) 14:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
+::::I like the suppress unknown skills template, and agree a limit of V - or IV and V - is what we are looking for here. --[[User:Anidien Dallacort|Anidien Dallacort]] ([[User talk:Anidien Dallacort|talk]]) 14:23, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
+:::: Please elaborate on how the CTRL+F breaks. Perhaps an important detail slipped my mind.
+:::: If I CTRL+F "Abyssal Ore Processing", yes it will highlight all Refiners. However, I'll CTRL+F "Abyssal Ore Processing V" or "Abyssal Ore Processing IV" and then it'll only highlight those Refiners that have those skills. All other skills will have their names displayed, but not their levels.
+:::: The only problem I foresee is CTRL+F-ing for "Abyssal Ore Processing I" which will than highlight "Abyssal Ore Processing IV" and "II" and "III", but we are only discussing displaying V and IV skills.
+:::: Let's table the discussion about how to create a Page that will also be in sync with the Perfect Refiner List Page. As Evon pointed out, it may conflict with the [[UniWiki:Welcome#UniWiki_ideals|Maintain A Single Source Of Truth]]. [[User:Arin Mara|Arin Mara]] ([[User talk:Arin Mara|talk]]) 17:02, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
+::::: The way the [https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/index.php?title=User:Evon_R%27al/Draft&oldid=189824 mock-up's] are constructed now the skill name and the level are in different table cells. Therefore adding the level to the skill does not work. I will look into that some more as I am not completely happy with the way it works yet. --[[User:Evon R&#39;al|Evon R&#39;al]] ([[User talk:Evon R&#39;al|talk]]) 18:12, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
+:::::: I see! Hmm... very well! Since you've invested so much effort into the Project implementation I've found it fitting to [[UniWiki:Projects#Perfect_Refiner_Template|add you to the list of Project editors]]. [[User:Arin Mara|Arin Mara]] ([[User talk:Arin Mara|talk]]) 19:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
+:::: I know I'm too lazy to CTRL+F "Abyssal Ore Processing V".  I'd rather just CTRL+F "Abyssal".  That's why I like the suppress unknown skills template Evon has.  It takes the CTRL+F "hit" out of the refiner who doesn't have level V (or IV) in that skill.  It also simultaneously searches IV and V, if we use near-perfect.  We set the rules for the page that you can't enter a level below IV or V (depending on the final route taken).  I also 100% agree with not creating two sources of the same data.  Though Arin totally missed out on an opportunity to ask us to "table the discussion on the table" --[[User:Anidien Dallacort|Anidien Dallacort]] ([[User talk:Anidien Dallacort|talk]]) 05:35, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
+::::: HAHAHAHHAHAHHA Welp. I'm sure there will be another golden opportunity to play with word tables. :P [[User:Arin Mara|Arin Mara]] ([[User talk:Arin Mara|talk]]) 19:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
+:: Agreed. I like that design and the dedicated template. Evon, once the template is in a state you're happy with, let me know and we can move on with the remaining steps in the project. --[[User:Devalt Yotosala|Devalt Yotosala]] ([[User talk:Devalt Yotosala|talk]]) 22:05, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
+: I have been "playing" with the template. The detailed skills are on there twice now for comparison. The first option has the skills always in the same position. This leaves "holes" for the non perfect skills. The second option has the skills always in the same order without the holes. See this [https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/index.php?title=User:Evon_R%27al/Draft&oldid=189924#Template_prototyping demo]. Tel me what you think about it, which do you prefer? Also the image should we keep it or remove it from the card? As far as I can see it is just eye candy and does not add any information. --[[User:Evon R&#39;al|Evon R&#39;al]] ([[User talk:Evon R&#39;al|talk]]) 13:39, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
+:: Let's go with the skills always being in the same position - it'll let people build muscle memory when it comes to determining the skills a refiner has. We can also keep the image - you're right in that it is just eye candy, but given the template format, it's not really consuming any space that could be better prioritized. --[[User:Devalt Yotosala|Devalt Yotosala]] ([[User talk:Devalt Yotosala|talk]]) 16:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
+:: I like same position also - the holes are fine, they are self explanatory.  I also like the pictures as a clear visual break between refiners. --[[User:Anidien Dallacort|Anidien Dallacort]] ([[User talk:Anidien Dallacort|talk]]) 21:25, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
---[[User:Devalt Yotosala|Devalt Yotosala]] ([[User talk:Devalt Yotosala|talk]]) 23:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
+: RC1 is ready. [https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/index.php?title=User:Evon_R%27al/Draft&oldid=190115#Template_prototyping Demo] and [https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/index.php?title=User:Evon_R%27al/Sandbox_template&oldid=190135 template]. Have a look at the documentation please? --[[User:Evon R&#39;al|Evon R&#39;al]] ([[User talk:Evon R&#39;al|talk]]) 14:58, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
+: Template in production. --[[User:Evon R&#39;al|Evon R&#39;al]] ([[User talk:Evon R&#39;al|talk]]) 13:26, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
-I like the requirements - and love the approach.  I'll put some thought into it, but right out of the gate, I would add the refiners themselves to the maintainability category - how easy is it for them to update their own profile? --[[User:Anidien Dallacort|Anidien Dallacort]] ([[User talk:Anidien Dallacort|talk]]) 17:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
+:: Woohoo! That's going straight into the next State of the Wiki Report! [[User:Arin Mara|Arin Mara]] ([[User talk:Arin Mara|talk]]) 21:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)