User talk:Drebin 679: Difference between revisions

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*Take care and stay safe.

[[User:qwer stoneghost|Qwer Stoneghost]] [[User talk:qwer stoneghost|talk]] Sun, Nov 22, 2020 11:01 EST US

:Appreciate the response.

:* For the record, [https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?p=928667#p928667 I was against the removal of ship fittings], in part for the very reason that you stated. New players now have to wade through zKill and EWB for decent looking fits, and don't necessarily have the means to discern good fits from bad, or the right fit for their situation. I had an instance a few weeks back where a person tried using a [[EDENCOM Forward Post|Forward Post]] [[Leshak]] fit as a [[Forward Operating Base]] basher, which are two entirely different scenarios! And believe me, I am not pleased in the slightest that [https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/index.php?title=Template:ShipArticle&oldid=155952 an edit I made to the ShipArticle template] was then used as justification for why the ship fittings weren't needed. I would like to see them back at some point, but that's not my decision to make.

:* My issue with the [[Scanning]] page is that since its inception in 2009, it primarily covered probe scanning, and after 11 years that primary function has now been thrown to what amounts to a subpage. For exploration, D-Scan is very helpful, but probe scanning is essential. And survey/cargo/ship/moon scanning don't really intersect with that exploration use. Now, again, I can understand the why of making a generic scanning page, to be able to distinguish between the various functions that are given the "scanning" moniker. In a vacuum, I'd support such a page. But the issue comes with repurposing an existing page with existing inertia. It takes work to wrench it properly in its location as a generic scanning page instead of a (primarily) probe scanning one as far at links from other pages are concerned. And I'm not against biting that bullet, it's just that it is a bullet that ought to be bitten if you want to go forward with that setup. I am happy to help, but I would like to reach a consensus first.

:* The inclusion of Ewar as weaponry seems reasonable enough. I'm fine with it, now. Again, my reaction to that was more out of inertia than anything.

:* My issue with calling [[Missiles]] slow is that it's subjective. Of course, it's slow compared to instant application. But there is a spectrum between the 2-3s of a rocket, and the 14-21s of a cruise missile or bomber torpedo. Is "slow" 5 seconds? 5 minutes? If people don't know anything about missile stats, I'm not sure how "slow" would come off. I like your edit to that sentence. It's more to the point, while avoiding terms that aren't hard and defined.

:* A way I do big edits is through use of the "Show Preview" button. Let's you see how your stuff will look without actually "publishing" the edit. Now, with the server hiccups, you may occasionally have to go back a page and refresh to keep your edit progress. Pretty annoying, not going to lie. I've trained myself to either select all + copy before hitting "Show preview", and/or copy/edit the page from a text file.

:* You can see any editor's activity with the [[Special:Contributions]] page. [[Special:Contributions/Noemie_belacqua|Noemie]]'s last edit was to the [[Special:Permalink/125064|Hauling]] page on the 4th of August, 2017. [[Special:Contributions/Djavin_novienta|Djavin]] hasn't made an edit in over a year. This can be contrasted with that of more current editors, such as [[Special:Contributions/Qwer_Stoneghost|you]], [[Special:Contributions/Drebin_679|me]], [[Special:Contributions/Jack_Colquitt|Jack Colquitt]], or [[Special:Contributions/Arin_Mara|Arin Mara]]. And to be clear, the things to-do from their age are ''still'' things to-do! When I was making the "standing on shoulders of giants" comment, I meant to imply that we have not had that level of edit activity or leadership that was around back then. Their problems are still ours.

:* While I can understand that I can come off as a whiny bureaucrat, truly things around here are pretty laissez-faire. Outside of specific pet projects (Campuses, Education doodads) and the occasional directorship ruling, there are no steering committees, formal moderation boards, or anything of that sort. The reason I suggested peer review is twofold. First, you can get feedback on things as you make them, or ask questions on particular subjects to improve the page you're working on. I think I can just mention "Active Shield Tanking" and leave it at that. Second, imagine if, instead of going to your talk page, I just went and mass undid all your changes in a page because I didn't like them. No discussion, no process, just click a button and bam, a day's work of yours erased. How would that have felt? What would you think of the rando that went and kicked over your craft?

::...

::Without discussion, the wiki is but a dozen people running around making changes to a giant document. Without communication, any conflict amongst them would turn into edit warring and disillusionment. The decentralized nature of wiki contributions is a strength, but conflict resolution must come in any moderately sized wiki. I'm not saying to throw every single edit idea into the dungeon of the ''ad hoc'' bureaucrats. But just... keep in mind that you're making large edits to very visible pages. People may have ideas which conflict with yours, and IMO its best to hash them out ahead of time. I hope that makes sense. I hope that isn't seen as encumbering.

::Your userspace is an easy place to place a bunch of sandboxes to show around changes if you want eyes on them. Can just make a page or few under your userspace, such as [[User:Qwer Stoneghost/Sandbox]]. It's what I do for most of my major changes. [[Capital Ship Modules]] started as a [[Special:Permalink/144938|sandbox page]], as you can see from the discussion below. [[Containers]] was a page that was dredged up from [[User:Christoph Patrouette/Container|Christoph Patrouette's userspace]]. And when I wanted to edit the [[Template:ShipsMatrix|ShipsMatrix template]] and make some notable structural changes, I put my changes into a [[Special:Permalink/140231|page in my userspace]], to make sure that people could see what I had in mind before it got put into hundreds of ship pages. I'd recommend getting some set up. Means you wouldn't have to shuffle drafts in and out of your main user page. Plus, you can throw page ideas together with less scrutiny.

:Regards, [[User:Drebin 679|Drebin 679]] ([[User talk:Drebin 679|talk]]) 23:02, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 12: / Line 12: @@
 *Take care and stay safe.
 [[User:qwer stoneghost|Qwer Stoneghost]] [[User talk:qwer stoneghost|talk]] Sun, Nov 22, 2020 11:01 EST US
+:Appreciate the response.
+:* For the record, [https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?p=928667#p928667 I was against the removal of ship fittings], in part for the very reason that you stated. New players now have to wade through zKill and EWB for decent looking fits, and don't necessarily have the means to discern good fits from bad, or the right fit for their situation.  I had an instance a few weeks back where a person tried using a [[EDENCOM Forward Post|Forward Post]] [[Leshak]] fit as a [[Forward Operating Base]] basher, which are two entirely different scenarios! And believe me, I am not pleased in the slightest that [https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/index.php?title=Template:ShipArticle&oldid=155952 an edit I made to the ShipArticle template] was then used as justification for why the ship fittings weren't needed. I would like to see them back at some point, but that's not my decision to make.
+:* My issue with the [[Scanning]] page is that since its inception in 2009, it primarily covered probe scanning, and after 11 years that primary function has now been thrown to what amounts to a subpage. For exploration, D-Scan is very helpful, but probe scanning is essential. And survey/cargo/ship/moon scanning don't really intersect with that exploration use. Now, again, I can understand the why of making a generic scanning page, to be able to distinguish between the various functions that are given the "scanning" moniker. In a vacuum, I'd support such a page. But the issue comes with repurposing an existing page with existing inertia. It takes work to wrench it properly in its location as a generic scanning page instead of a (primarily) probe scanning one as far at links from other pages are concerned. And I'm not against biting that bullet, it's just that it is a bullet that ought to be bitten if you want to go forward with that setup. I am happy to help, but I would like to reach a consensus first.
+:* The inclusion of Ewar as weaponry seems reasonable enough. I'm fine with it, now. Again, my reaction to that was more out of inertia than anything.
+:* My issue with calling [[Missiles]] slow is that it's subjective. Of course, it's slow compared to instant application. But there is a spectrum between the 2-3s of a rocket, and the 14-21s of a cruise missile or bomber torpedo. Is "slow" 5 seconds? 5 minutes? If people don't know anything about missile stats, I'm not sure how "slow" would come off. I like your edit to that sentence. It's more to the point, while avoiding terms that aren't hard and defined.
+:* A way I do big edits is through use of the "Show Preview" button. Let's you see how your stuff will look without actually "publishing" the edit. Now, with the server hiccups, you may occasionally have to go back a page and refresh to keep your edit progress. Pretty annoying, not going to lie. I've trained myself to either select all + copy before hitting "Show preview", and/or copy/edit the page from a text file.
+:* You can see any editor's activity with the [[Special:Contributions]] page. [[Special:Contributions/Noemie_belacqua|Noemie]]'s last edit was to the [[Special:Permalink/125064|Hauling]] page on the 4th of August, 2017. [[Special:Contributions/Djavin_novienta|Djavin]] hasn't made an edit in over a year. This can be contrasted with that of more current editors, such as [[Special:Contributions/Qwer_Stoneghost|you]], [[Special:Contributions/Drebin_679|me]], [[Special:Contributions/Jack_Colquitt|Jack Colquitt]], or [[Special:Contributions/Arin_Mara|Arin Mara]]. And to be clear, the things to-do from their age are ''still'' things to-do! When I was making the "standing on shoulders of giants" comment, I meant to imply that we have not had that level of edit activity or leadership that was around back then. Their problems are still ours.
+:* While I can understand that I can come off as a whiny bureaucrat, truly things around here are pretty laissez-faire. Outside of specific pet projects (Campuses, Education doodads) and the occasional directorship ruling, there are no steering committees, formal moderation boards, or anything of that sort. The reason I suggested peer review is twofold. First, you can get feedback on things as you make them, or ask questions on particular subjects to improve the page you're working on. I think I can just mention "Active Shield Tanking" and leave it at that. Second, imagine if, instead of going to your talk page, I just went and mass undid all your changes in a page because I didn't like them. No discussion, no process, just click a button and bam, a day's work of yours erased. How would that have felt? What would you think of the rando that went and kicked over your craft?
+::...
+::Without discussion, the wiki is but a dozen people running around making changes to a giant document. Without communication, any conflict amongst them would turn into edit warring and disillusionment. The decentralized nature of wiki contributions is a strength, but conflict resolution must come in any moderately sized wiki. I'm not saying to throw every single edit idea into the dungeon of the ''ad hoc'' bureaucrats. But just... keep in mind that you're making large edits to very visible pages. People may have ideas which conflict with yours, and IMO its best to hash them out ahead of time. I hope that makes sense. I hope that isn't seen as encumbering.
+::Your userspace is an easy place to place a bunch of sandboxes to show around changes if you want eyes on them. Can just make a page or few under your userspace, such as [[User:Qwer Stoneghost/Sandbox]]. It's what I do for most of my major changes. [[Capital Ship Modules]] started as a [[Special:Permalink/144938|sandbox page]], as you can see from the discussion below. [[Containers]] was a page that was dredged up from [[User:Christoph Patrouette/Container|Christoph Patrouette's userspace]]. And when I wanted to edit the [[Template:ShipsMatrix|ShipsMatrix template]] and make some notable structural changes, I put my changes into a [[Special:Permalink/140231|page in my userspace]], to make sure that people could see what I had in mind before it got put into hundreds of ship pages. I'd recommend getting some set up. Means you wouldn't have to shuffle drafts in and out of your main user page. Plus, you can throw page ideas together with less scrutiny.
+:Regards, [[User:Drebin 679|Drebin 679]] ([[User talk:Drebin 679|talk]]) 23:02, 22 November 2020 (UTC)