Latest revision as of 13:25, 11 January 2023

Planning ahead

Unless you are already heavily invested into a certain race or weapon system, it might be a good idea to think of which logistics ship, strategic cruiser or pirate faction battleship you'll want in the end, rather than what your first incursion ship should be. Don't worry too much about it though, as the race specific ship and weapon skills you train for the minimum skills only amount to a little over five days worth of training. So changing your mind along the way wouldn't be much of a detour.

Depending on the race, training for strategic cruisers will make quite some progress towards being able to fly logistics as well, or the other way around if your goal is to fly logistics. That said, most strategic cruisers pale in comparison to the pirate faction battleships who remain the epitome of incursion boats.

Synergy

You should also consider secondary value of whatever you train, perhaps you can find an end-of-the-line ship that not only furthers your goals for incursions but other goals as well given the skills you'll end up training for it. If you already know that you like smaller ships, or have plans for diving into a wormhole in the future, it would make much more sense training into a strategic cruiser than a pirate faction battleship.

So take some time to consider which racial ship line, what racial weapons would benefit you doing missions, exploration, PvP or whatever else you'd like to do in EVE.

Ship progression

The EVE University Incursion Community doesn't require unistas to use fancy hulls and modules or put expensive implants into your head due to the constant threat of war. Pilots who take the necessary precautions are of course allowed to, but should do so of their own free will being aware of the risk.

Progression varies a little between the roles of logistics and damage dealers, but is somewhat straight forward with easily identified high-end ships to aim for.

Logistics

While there's little in terms of progression for logistics, it's worth mentioning that it can be highly advantageous to train into both the Scimitar and the Basilisk. Progression is mostly based on skills once you can fly these two ships, most notably Logistics Cruisers V that opens up for a lot of options.

Scimitar

The is cap stable on its own and does not require a cap chain to run all its remote shield boosters. That and the bonus to remote tracking computers means it's favoured in any fleet that either doesn't need utility cap or has it covered already.

Minmatar Cruiser
Shield Emission Systems
Sensor Linking (favoured in vanguard sites for their remote tracking computer bonus)

Basilisk

The relies on establishing a cap chain in order to run all its remote shield boosters. The extra high slots allow for either more remote shield boosters or extra utility cap for the fleet. It is often used to ensure enough utility cap for the more difficult incursion sites featuring heavy neuting.

Caldari Cruiser
Shield Emission Systems
Capacitor Emission Systems (favoured in assault and headquarter sites for their ability to provide cap)

Pirate faction battleships

The Machariel, Nightmare and Vindicator hulls are preferred for incursions due to a combination of higher base stats, better bonuses and better slot layouts.

Some of these have a natural progression, like the Maelstrom pilot only needing Gallente Battleship to move into a Machariel and a Hyperion pilot only needing to train Minmatar Battleship to get into the Vindicator. Left a bit on the side is the Rokh with a low priority synergy with the Nightmare given the Caldari Battleship skill and a slightly stronger synergy with the Vindicator given that they both use the Large Hybrid Turret skill for their guns.

Training up a racial battleship skill from scratch to III takes less than four days and training a new racial turret skill to III is about a day and a half, so even if some of these ships have natural progression; don't feel like you're a slave to your initial choice of ship or weaponry.

Nightmare

The has very good damage at any range due to fast-swapping crystals and compensates for the innate low tracking of lasers with the ship's tracking bonus. It also has plenty of utility midslots available. Has some cap issues putting some pressure on good cap skills.

Amarr Battleship (increases turret tracking speed)
Caldari Battleship (low priority as the afterburner effect is hardly used)
Large Energy Turret

Machariel

The combines a flexible engagement range for autocannons with a high rate of fire. Fit for long range the impressive alpha is unmatched, although it does suffer comparably with lower overall dps. It also has enough midslots to fit for any occasion.

Gallente Battleship ^[1] (increases turret falloff)
Minmatar Battleship ^[1] (highest priority increases turret damage)
Large Projectile Turret

Vindicator

The is a brawler without match, both in terms of damage and incredibly strong webs. Despite appearances, it is also a very potent sniper when fitted with railguns, and tech two ammo makes it possible to use blasters at medium range.

Gallente Battleship ^[1] (increases turret tracking speed)
Minmatar Battleship ^[1] (highest priority as it increases webifier effectiveness)
Large Hybrid Turret

^ ^a ^b ^c ^d Gallente Battleship and Minmatar Battleship are shared between both the Machariel and the Vindicator, so if you like flying multiple hulls you'd have the ship skills covered and you'd only need to train a new racial turret skill.

Command Ships and Strategic Cruisers

“

These ships are not ships you train into for for the sake of doing incursions as a damage dealer ...

”

Cruiser-sized hulls like Command Ships and Strategic Cruisers are less powerful with their weaker medium weaponry and sometimes low number of utility midslots. A lot of these ships also have some issues with range projection, even when using long range weapons. Unlike regular tech one battleships, they also focus on skills that make little to no headway towards the more powerful pirate faction battleships.

Given their lower dps potential, these ships also require very high skills (near max) and tech two guns to be able to perform. These ships are not ships you train into for the sake of doing incursions, with the exception of the ongrid booster role, but used as an alternative if you can't fly battleships and you happen to have these trained high already.

Ill-suited for public communities

Almost all communities shun these two ship classes (with the exception of command ships for ongrid boosting). Instead they favour having their members temporarily go into the tech one battleships, until they can afford to upgrade to the more powerful pirate faction battleships. Any other ship class is just a waste of time and effort better put into getting them skilled and ready in the appropriate high-end ships they desire, since people make enough ISK to upgrade to a proper pirate faction ship after just a handful of hours worth of running.

Accepted in the EVE University Incursion Community

In the EVE University Incursion Community we have no real reason to casually bar these ships as regular damage dealers, since properly fitted with long range medium turrets they can often perform similar to or slightly better than our tech one minimum fits. They can also be used effectively for Nation Consolidation Network assault sites. Since we have some members who spend the majority of their time in other communities flying smaller ships, this allows us to include more people into our community.

While we accept them, they are still not recommended for the majority of players as they require very high skills and tech two weapons to perform. They should only be used for very specific reasons when other alternatives are much less desirable.

Fit progression

For the most part, fit progression is really only relevant for high-end ships like the three pirate faction battleships mentioned above. Logistics ships use pretty much the same rigs, changing only a few modules based on their desired fit. Remember that upgrading from a regular battleship to a pirate faction battleship alone is a big upgrade and the best use of your ISK for the initial upgrade.

See upgrade priorities for more information and remember that your options are highly limited by your choice of rigs. That choice also heavily influences the amount of ISK you need to front to make the fit work. The examples below will use the more common setups, so will not include specialized fits such as the warp speed variant.

Cheap

If you're not entirely sure how you want to fit your ship in the end, the same principle that we follow to fit our minimum fits can be applied to pirate faction ships as well. Practically you can fit a Vindicator more or less the same way you'd fit a Hyperion. The same goes for fitting a Machariel similar to how you fit a Maelstrom.

Here's an example of a Nightmare fit according to our principles, with only a minor change to rigs since their increased stats make shield extender rigs superfluous.

Nightmare: Cheap setup (example)

EFT

[Nightmare, Cheap setup (example)]

Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
EM Shield Hardener II

Damage Control II

Large Thermal Shield Reinforcer I
Large Energy Burst Aerator II

FITTING DIFFICULTY

EVE VERSION

June 2020

ALPHA CAN USE

UNSET

EFT

SKILLS

NOTES

RECOMMENDED SKILLS

NOTES

The Nightmare is often the only decent entry-ship for Amarr pilots.
Even using the standard setup the ship sports plenty of midslots allowing for a high number of utility modules, four to be exact.

Effective

“

... will free up an extra midslot.

”

If you want to keep the cost of the fit down while still having some improvements, you could go halfway with the cheapest deadspace modules. The advanced EM rig setup from the fitting principles page will free up an extra midslot.

Note:

This fit changes the rig to a

Large EM Shield Reinforcer I and will not work with other resist rigs.

Machariel: Effective setup (example)

EFT

[Machariel, Effective setup (example)]

Pithum C-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener
Multispectrum Shield Hardener II

Damage Control II

Large EM Shield Reinforcer I
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II

FITTING DIFFICULTY

EVE VERSION

April 2020

ALPHA CAN USE

UNSET

EFT

SKILLS

NOTES

RECOMMENDED SKILLS

NOTES

With a cheap setup you'd use up 3 midslots for tank, this only uses two, giving you one extra midslot for utility modules.
Increasing the tank for this fit is a bit limited, but you can either add a normal Multispectrum Shield Hardener II module for assaults, or if you want to solidify your tank for headquarters, two Pithum B-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardeners.

Optimal

“

... gives you maximum damage and will free up two extra midslots.

”

If you're willing to spend a little bit more on your favourite cash-cow ship, you can take it one step further with one of the more costly deadspace hardeners. The advanced electromagnetic rig setup from the fitting principles page gives you maximum damage and will free up an extra midslot.

Here's an example of a Vindicator fit according to that principle.

Note:

This fit changes the rig to a

Large EM Shield Reinforcer I and will not work with other resist rigs.

Vindicator: Optimal setup (example)

EFT

[Vindicator, Optimal setup (example)]

Pithum B-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener

Damage Control II

Large EM Shield Reinforcer I
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II

FITTING DIFFICULTY

EVE VERSION

June 2020

ALPHA CAN USE

UNSET

EFT

SKILLS

NOTES

RECOMMENDED SKILLS

NOTES

With a cheap setup you'd use up 3 midslots for tank, leaving only 2 midslots for utility modules. But since you're only using 1 midslot you now have room for two additional midslots.
Increasing the tank for this fit can be as cheap as adding a normal Multispectrum Shield Hardener II module for assaults, or if you want to solidify your tank for headquarters, a second Pithum B-Type or Pithum A-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener.

Skill progression

For the most part skill progression is as simple as just topping off the minimum skills you needed to get ready and perhaps train a couple of new skills to be able to use a different set of drones or a situational module. There are however some differences between skill progression for logistics and damage dealers.

Logistics

Progression for logistics is practically an intertwined mess of both fit and skill progression, as skills like Logistics Cruisers V and all the support skills all play a vital role. The more powerful tech two remote shield boosters require better fitting skills and utility modules require more cap, at the same time you want to use less fitting modules to free up room for even more utility modules while still keeping a good enough tank.

See minimum and recommended skills for a list of specific skills to train early on to quickly move into the recommended and advanced logistics fits.

Implants

It's possible to change the priority or shorten the train early on by using implants to improve your capacitor regeneration or fitting room. This is because logistics have relatively small capacitor capacity and even small changes can often make or break a fit. See recommended implants for more information.

Damage dealers

Most of the progression in terms of skill for damage dealers surrounds gunnery and drones, but also to some extent capacitor management and fitting skills. Skill progression for damage dealers are completely disjointed and separate from ship progression due to the fact that you'll perform better in a pirate faction than you would in a tech one hull no matter what your skills are. So as your skills improve you'll progress the same regardless if it's in a fancy ship or your old but trustworthy tech one battleship; You simply upgrade when your skills allow you to.

See minimum and recommended skills for a list of specific skills to train early on.

	Tech two weapons As soon as you have the skills for it, toss away those old meta turrets and replace them with your tech two turrets of choice. All ships, tech one battleships as well as pirate faction battleships benefit greatly from the much more powerful tech two turrets (and their advanced ammunition).
	Improved drone skills There are several drone-related skills to help improve your performance. First training into medium drones and improving drone control range, then general drone support and specialization skills. Later on you might train heavy drones for headquarter sites or sentry drones for vanguard sites.
	Capacitor management Some skills improve basic capacitor regeneration, others reduce capacitor usage instead. Some ships will have little to no issues with cap, while others are much more subject to it and require very high skills. Implants play a small role in this as well, so your mileage will vary here depending on your skills, ship, fit and implants.
	Fitting skills Long range weapons and propulsion modules in particular put a lot of strain on your power grid while tech two weapons and damage upgrades require a lot of CPU. This is not an issue early on, but as you move into assaults and headquarters, you might need to train skills that reduce the power grid and CPU requirements as well as improving the base output of your ship.

[galmin-1] Gallente Battleship and Minmatar Battleship are shared between both the Machariel and the Vindicator, so if you like flying multiple hulls you'd have the ship skills covered and you'd only need to train a new racial turret skill.

[1]

Difference between revisions of "Ship progression in Incursions"

Latest revision as of 13:25, 11 January 2023

Contents

Planning ahead

Synergy

Ship progression

Logistics

Scimitar

Basilisk

Pirate faction battleships

Nightmare

Machariel

Vindicator

Command Ships and Strategic Cruisers

Ill-suited for public communities

Accepted in the EVE University Incursion Community

Fit progression

Cheap

Effective

Optimal

Skill progression

Logistics

Damage dealers

Navigation menu

Personal tools

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@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 {{incursions_links}}
 = Planning ahead =
-Unless you are already heavily invested into a certain race or weapon system, it might be a good idea to think of which logistics ship, strategic cruiser or pirate faction battleship you'll want in the end, rather than what your first incursion ship should be.
+Unless you are already heavily invested into a certain race or weapon system, it might be a good idea to think of which logistics ship, strategic cruiser or pirate faction battleship you'll want in the end, rather than what your first incursion ship should be. Don't worry too much about it though, as the race specific ship and weapon skills you train for the minimum skills only amount to a little over five days worth of training. So changing your mind along the way wouldn't be much of a detour.
-Depending on the race, training for strategic cruisers will make quite some progress towards being able to fly logistics as well, or the other way around if your goal is to fly logistcs. That said, most strategic cruisers pale in comparison to the pirate faction battleships who remain the epitome of incursion boats.
+Depending on the race, training for strategic cruisers will make quite some progress towards being able to fly logistics as well, or the other way around if your goal is to fly logistics. That said, most strategic cruisers pale in comparison to the pirate faction battleships who remain the epitome of incursion boats.
-== Synnergy ==
+== Synergy ==
 You should also consider secondary value of whatever you train, perhaps you can find an end-of-the-line ship that not only furthers your goals for incursions but other goals as well given the skills you'll end up training for it. If you already know that you like smaller ships, or have plans for diving into a wormhole in the future, it would make much more sense training into a strategic cruiser than a pirate faction battleship.
 So take some time to consider which racial ship line, what racial weapons would benefit you doing missions, exploration, PvP or whatever else you'd like to do in EVE.
-= Starter ships =
-The starter ships are pretty skill intensive, requiring you to have at least a couple of months worth training to get the [[Preparing_for_Incursions#Recommended_skills|recommended skills]] to effectively fly them.
+= Ship progression =
-== Recommended battleships ==
+{{important note box|The [[EVE University Incursion Community]] doesn't require '''unistas''' to use fancy hulls and modules or put expensive implants into your head due to the constant threat of war. Pilots who take the necessary precautions are of course allowed to, but should do so of their own free will being aware of the risk.}}
-{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:left; font-size:90%; border-collapse:collapse; border:1px solid #333333; padding:5px;"
+Progression varies a little between the roles of [[Roles in Incursions#Logistics|logistics]] and [[Roles in Incursions#Damage dealers|damage dealers]], but is somewhat straight forward with easily identified high-end ships to aim for.
-|-
+== Logistics ==
-! style="background:#222222;" | Races
+While there's little in terms of progression for logistics, it's worth mentioning that it can be highly advantageous to train into both the '''Scimitar''' and the '''Basilisk'''. Progression is mostly based on skills once you can fly these two ships, most notably {{sk|Logistics Cruisers|V}} that opens up for a lot of options.
-! style="background:#222222;" | Ship
+==== Scimitar ====
-! style="background:#222222;" | Description
+{| style="padding:0px;"
-|- valign="top"
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_tech2.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|minmatar|48}}</div>[[File:Scimitar.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:logo_faction_minmatar_republic.png|64px]]
+| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|scimitar|tooltip}} is cap stable on its own and does not require a cap chain to run all its remote shield boosters. That and the bonus to '''remote tracking computers''' means it's favoured in any fleet that either doesn't need utility cap or has it covered already.
-| style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Maelstrom.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Maelstrom]] can easily lead into the '''Machariel''', retaining the projectile skills and Minmatar skills, but requires Gallente battleship. Minmatar in general also offers the '''Loki''' and '''Sleipnir''' as well as the '''Scimitar''' for logistics.
+{{icon|minmatar2|28}}{{sk|Minmatar Cruiser}}<br>
-|- valign="top"
+{{icon|remote shield booster|28}}{{sk|Shield Emission Systems}}<br>
-| nowrap style="padding:0px; text-align:center;" | [[image:logo_faction_caldari_state.png|64px]]
+{{icon|remote tracking computer|28}}{{sk|Sensor Linking}} (favoured in [[Incursion sites#Vanguard sites|vanguard sites]] for their '''remote tracking computer''' bonus)
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Rokh.jpg|64px]]
+|}
-| The [[Rokh]] can train into a '''Vindicator''', retaining the hybrid skills, but forced to train both Gallente and Minmatar battleships. It can also train into the '''Nightmare''', retaining the Caldari battleship skills, but forced to crosstrain into lasers. Caldari also offers the '''Basilisk''' for logistics.
-|- valign="top"
+==== Basilisk ====
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:logo_faction_gallente_federation.png|64px]]
+{| style="padding:0px;"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Hyperion.jpg|64px]]
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_tech2.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|caldari|48}}</div>[[File:Basilisk.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
-| The [[Hyperion]] can easily lead into the '''Vindicator''', retaining the hybrid skills and Gallente skills, but it would require you to also train Minmatar battleship.
+| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Basilisk|tooltip}} relies on establishing a cap chain in order to run all its remote shield boosters. The extra high slots allow for either more remote shield boosters or extra utility cap for the fleet. It is often used to ensure enough utility cap for the more difficult incursion sites featuring heavy neuting.
+{{icon|caldari2|28}}{{sk|Caldari Cruiser}}<br>
+{{icon|remote shield booster|28}}{{sk|Shield Emission Systems}}<br>
+{{icon|remote capacitor transmitter|28}}{{sk|Capacitor Emission Systems}} (favoured in [[Incursion sites#Assault sites|assault]] and [[Incursion sites#Headquarter sites|headquarter sites]] for their ability to provide cap)
+|}
+== Pirate faction battleships ==
+The '''Machariel''', '''Nightmare''' and '''Vindicator''' hulls are preferred for incursions due to a combination of higher base stats, better bonuses and better slot layouts.
+Some of these have a natural progression, like the [[Vanguard Incursion fits#Maelstrom|Maelstrom]] pilot only needing {{sk|Gallente Battleship}} to move into a '''Machariel''' and a [[Vanguard Incursion fits#Hyperion|Hyperion]] pilot only needing to train {{sk|Minmatar Battleship}} to get into the '''Vindicator'''. Left a bit on the side is the [[Vanguard Incursion fits#Rokh|Rokh]] with a low priority synergy with the '''Nightmare''' given the {{sk|Caldari Battleship}} skill and a slightly stronger synergy with the '''Vindicator''' given that they both use the {{sk|Large Hybrid Turret}} skill for their guns.
+Training up a racial battleship skill from scratch to III takes less than four days and training a new racial turret skill to III is about a day and a half, so even if some of these ships have natural progression; don't feel like you're a slave to your initial choice of ship or weaponry.
+==== Nightmare ====
+{| style="padding:0px;"
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|sansha's nation|48}}</div>[[File:Nightmare.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
+| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Nightmare|tooltip}} has very good damage at any range due to fast-swapping crystals and compensates for the innate low tracking of lasers with the ship's tracking bonus. It also has plenty of utility midslots available. Has some cap issues putting some pressure on good cap skills.
+{{icon|amarr2|28}}{{sk|Amarr Battleship}} (increases turret tracking speed)<br>
+{{icon|caldari2|28}}{{sk|Caldari Battleship}} (low priority as the afterburner effect is hardly used)<br>
+{{icon|large pulse laser|28}}{{sk|Large Energy Turret}}
+|}
+==== Machariel ====
+{| style="padding:0px;"
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|angel cartel|48}}</div>[[File:Machariel.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
+| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Machariel|tooltip}} combines a flexible engagement range for autocannons with a high rate of fire. Fit for long range the impressive alpha is unmatched, although it does suffer comparably with lower overall dps. It also has enough midslots to fit for any occasion.
+{{icon|gallente2|28}}{{sk|Gallente Battleship}}<small>&nbsp;<ref name="galmin">{{sk|Gallente Battleship}} and {{sk|Minmatar Battleship}} are shared between both the [[Machariel]] and the [[Vindicator]], so if you like flying multiple hulls you'd have the ship skills covered and you'd only need to train a new racial turret skill.</ref></small> (increases turret falloff)<br>
+{{icon|minmatar2|28}}{{sk|Minmatar Battleship}}<small>&nbsp;<ref name="galmin"/></small> (highest priority increases turret damage)<br>
+{{icon|large autocannon|28}}{{sk|Large Projectile Turret}}
+|}
+==== Vindicator ====
+{| style="padding:0px;"
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|serpentis|48}}</div>[[File:Vindicator.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
+| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Vindicator|tooltip}} is a brawler without match, both in terms of damage and incredibly strong webs. Despite appearances, it is also a very potent sniper when fitted with railguns, and tech two ammo makes it possible to use blasters at medium range.
+{{icon|gallente2|28}}{{sk|Gallente Battleship}}<small>&nbsp;<ref name="galmin"/></small> (increases turret tracking speed)<br>
+{{icon|minmatar2|28}}{{sk|Minmatar Battleship}}<small>&nbsp;<ref name="galmin"/></small> (highest priority as it increases webifier effectiveness)<br>
+{{icon|large blaster|28}}{{sk|Large Hybrid Turret}}
 |}
+<small><references/></small>
+== Command Ships and Strategic Cruisers ==
+{{quote|These ships are not ships you train into for for the sake of doing incursions as a damage dealer ...}}
+Cruiser-sized hulls like '''Command Ships''' and '''Strategic Cruisers''' are less powerful with their weaker medium weaponry and sometimes low number of utility midslots. A lot of these ships also have some issues with range projection, even when using long range weapons. Unlike regular tech one battleships, they also focus on skills that make little to no headway towards the more powerful pirate faction battleships.
+Given their lower dps potential, these ships also require very high skills (near max) and tech two guns to be able to perform. These ships are not ships you train into for the sake of doing incursions, with the exception of the [[Roles in Incursions#Ongrid booster|ongrid booster role]], but used as an alternative if you can't fly battleships and you happen to have these trained high already.
+===== Ill-suited for public communities =====
+Almost all communities shun these two ship classes (with the exception of command ships for [[Roles in Incursions#Ongrid booster|ongrid boosting]]). Instead they favour having their members temporarily go into the tech one battleships, until they can afford to upgrade to the more powerful pirate faction battleships. Any other ship class is just a waste of time and effort better put into getting them skilled and ready in the appropriate high-end ships they desire, since people make enough ISK to upgrade to a proper pirate faction ship after just a handful of hours worth of running.
+===== Accepted in the EVE University Incursion Community =====
+In the [[EVE University Incursion Community]] we have no real reason to casually bar these ships as regular damage dealers, since properly fitted with long range medium turrets they can often perform similar to or slightly better than our tech one minimum fits. They can also be used effectively for [[Nation Consolidation Network]] assault sites. Since we have some members who spend the majority of their time in other [[communities]] flying smaller ships, this allows us to include more people into our community.
+While we accept them, they are still '''not recommended''' for the majority of players as they require very high skills and tech two weapons to perform. They should only be used for very specific reasons when other alternatives are much less desirable.
+= Fit progression =
+For the most part, fit progression is really only relevant for high-end ships like the three pirate faction battleships mentioned above. Logistics ships use pretty much the same rigs, changing only a few modules based on their desired fit. Remember that upgrading from a regular battleship to a pirate faction battleship alone is a big upgrade and the best use of your ISK for the initial upgrade.
+See [[Incursion fitting principles#Upgrade priorities|upgrade priorities]] for more information and remember that your options are highly limited by your [[Incursion fitting principles#Rigging choice|choice of rigs]]. That choice also heavily influences the amount of ISK you need to front to make the fit work. The examples below will use the more common setups, so will not include specialized fits such as the '''warp speed''' variant.
+== Cheap ==
+If you're not entirely sure how you want to fit your ship in the end, the same principle that we follow to fit our [[Incursion fitting principles#Minimum setup|minimum fits]] can be applied to pirate faction ships as well. Practically you can fit a '''Vindicator''' more or less the same way you'd fit a [[Vanguard Incursion fits#Hyperion|Hyperion]]. The same goes for fitting a '''Machariel''' similar to how you fit a [[Vanguard Incursion fits#Maelstrom|Maelstrom]].
+Here's an example of a '''Nightmare''' fit according to our principles, with only a minor change to rigs since their increased stats make shield extender rigs superfluous.
+{{ShipFitting
+| ship=Nightmare
+| shipTypeID=17736
+| fitName=Cheap setup (example)
+| fitID=Cheap-setup-(example)
+| low1name=Damage Control II
+| low1typeID=2048
+| mid1name=Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
+| mid1typeID=2281
+| mid2name=Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
+| mid2typeID=2281
+| mid3name=EM Shield Hardener II
+| mid3typeID=2301
+| rig1name=Large Thermal Shield Reinforcer I
+| rig1typeID=26082
+| rig2name=Large Energy Burst Aerator II
+| rig2typeID=26380
+| low2name=open
+| low3name=open
+| low4name=open
+| low5name=open
+| low6name=open
+| mid4name=open
+| mid5name=open
+| mid6name=open
+| mid7name=open
+| high1name=open
+| high2name=open
+| high3name=open
+| high4name=open
+| high5name=open
+| high6name=open
+| rig3name=open
+| skills=
+| showSKILLS=N
+| notes=The '''Nightmare''' is often the only decent entry-ship for '''Amarr''' pilots.</li><li>Even using the standard setup the ship sports plenty of midslots allowing for a '''high number of''' [[Incursion fitting principles#Utility modules|utility modules]], four to be exact.
+| showNOTES=Y
+| difficulty=0
+| warsop=A
+| warsopReason=
+| version=June 2020
+| showTOC=N
+| shipDNA=17736:2048;1:2281;2:2301;1:26082;1:26380;1::
+| fleetup=
+}}
+== Effective ==
+{{quote|... will free up an extra midslot.}}
+If you want to keep the cost of the fit down while still having some improvements, you could go halfway with the cheapest deadspace modules. The [[Incursion fitting principles#Thermal rig|advanced EM rig setup]] from the '''fitting principles''' page will free up an extra midslot.
+{{note|This fit changes the rig to a {{icon|em resist|22}}{{co|coral|Large EM Shield Reinforcer I}} and will not work with other resist rigs.}}
+{{ShipFitting
+| ship=Machariel
+| shipTypeID=11738
+| fitName=Effective setup (example)
+| fitID=Optimal-setup-(example)
+| low1name=Damage Control II
+| low1typeID=2048
+| mid1name=Pithum C-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener
+| mid1typeID=4349
+| mid2name=Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
+| mid2typeID=2281
+| rig1name=Large EM Shield Reinforcer I
+| rig1typeID=26076
+| rig2name=Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
+| rig2typeID=26430
+| low2name=open
+| low3name=open
+| low4name=open
+| low5name=open
+| low6name=open
+| mid3name=open
+| mid4name=open
+| mid5name=open
+| mid6name=open
+| high1name=open
+| high2name=open
+| high3name=open
+| high4name=open
+| high5name=open
+| high6name=open
+| high7name=open
+| high8name=open
+| rig3name=open
+| skills=
+| showSKILLS=N
+| notes=With a cheap setup you'd use up 3 midslots for tank, this only uses two, giving you one extra midslot for [[Incursion fitting principles#Utility modules|utility modules]].</li><li>Increasing the tank for this fit is a bit limited, but you can either add a normal {{co|coral|Multispectrum Shield Hardener II}} module for assaults, or if you want to solidify your tank for headquarters, two {{co|coral|Pithum B-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardeners}}.
+| showNOTES=Y
+| difficulty=0
+| version=April 2020
+| showTOC=N
+| shipDNA=17740:2048;1:4349;1:2281;1:26076;1:26430;1::
+| fleetup=
+}}
+== Optimal ==
+{{quote|... gives you maximum damage and will free up two extra midslots.}}
+If you're willing to spend a little bit more on your favourite cash-cow ship, you can take it one step further with one of the more costly deadspace hardeners. The [[Incursion fitting principles#Electromagnetic rig|advanced electromagnetic rig setup]] from the '''fitting principles''' page gives you maximum damage and will free up an extra midslot.
+Here's an example of a '''Vindicator''' fit according to that principle.
+{{note|This fit changes the rig to a {{icon|em resist|22}}{{co|coral|Large EM Shield Reinforcer I}} and will not work with other resist rigs.}}
+{{ShipFitting
+| ship=Vindicator
+| shipTypeID=17740
+| fitName=Optimal setup (example)
+| fitID=Optimal-setup-(example)
+| low1name=Damage Control II
+| low1typeID=2048
+| mid1name=Pithum B-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener
+| mid1typeID=4348
+| rig1name=Large EM Shield Reinforcer I
+| rig1typeID=26076
+| rig2name=Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
+| rig2typeID=26394
+| low2name=open
+| low3name=open
+| low4name=open
+| low5name=open
+| low6name=open
+| low7name=open
+| mid2name=open
+| mid3name=open
+| mid4name=open
+| mid5name=open
+| high1name=open
+| high2name=open
+| high3name=open
+| high4name=open
+| high5name=open
+| high6name=open
+| high7name=open
+| high8name=open
+| rig3name=open
+| skills=
+| showSKILLS=N
+| notes=With a cheap setup you'd use up 3 midslots for tank, leaving only 2 midslots for [[Incursion fitting principles#Utility modules|utility modules]]. But since you're only using 1 midslot you now have room for two additional midslots.</li><li>Increasing the tank for this fit can be as cheap as adding a normal {{co|coral|Multispectrum Shield Hardener II}} module for assaults, or if you want to solidify your tank for headquarters, a second {{co|coral|Pithum B-Type}} or {{co|coral|Pithum A-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener}}.
+| showNOTES=Y
+| difficulty=0
+| version=June 2020
+| showTOC=N
+| shipDNA=17740:2048;1:4348;1:2281;1:26076;1:26394;1::
+| fleetup=
+}}
+= Skill progression =
+For the most part skill progression is as simple as just topping off the '''minimum''' skills you needed to get ready and perhaps train a couple of new skills to be able to use a different set of drones or a situational module. There are however some differences between skill progression for logistics and damage dealers.
 == Logistics ==
-{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:left; font-size:90%; border-collapse:collapse; border:1px solid #333333; padding:5px;"
+Progression for logistics is practically an intertwined mess of both fit and skill progression, as skills like {{sk|Logistics Cruisers|V}} and all the support skills all play a vital role. The more powerful tech two remote shield boosters require better fitting skills and utility modules require more cap, at the same time you want to use less fitting modules to free up room for even more utility modules while still keeping a good enough tank.
-|-
-! style="background:#222222;" | Races
+See [[Preparing for Incursions#Minimum skills for logistics|minimum]] and [[Preparing for Incursions#Recommended skills for logistics|recommended skills]] for a list of specific skills to train early on to quickly move into the '''recommended''' and '''advanced''' logistics fits.
-! style="background:#222222;" | Ship
+{|
-! style="background:#222222;" | Description
+| valign="top" | [[File:icon_implant_hardwiring.png|64px|link=]]
-|- valign="top"
+| {{co|coral|Implants}}
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:logo_faction_minmatar_republic.png|64px]][[image:logo_core_complexion_inc.png|64px]]
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Scimitar.jpg|64px]]
+It's possible to change the priority or shorten the train early on by using '''implants''' to improve your capacitor regeneration or fitting room. This is because logistics have relatively small capacitor capacity and even small changes can often make or break a fit. See [[Incursion fitting principles#Recommended implants|recommended implants]] for more information.
-| The [[Scimitar]] is a logistics ship, the core of fleet defense. It does not rely on energy transfers to be cap stable and can therefor be fully operational on its own. The bonus to tracking links makes it an enormous asset on the field, on top of the repairs it supplies.
-|- valign="top"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:logo_faction_caldari_state.png|64px]][[image:logo_lai_dai.png|64px]]
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Basilisk.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Basilisk]] is another logistics ship, but unlike the Scimitar, it needs someone to exchange energy transfers with to be effective. With good skills it can provide energy transfers to the fleet or field one more shield transporter for extra repping power.
 |}
-= Moving on to high-end ships =
+== Damage dealers ==
-== Command Ships ==
+Most of the progression in terms of skill for damage dealers surrounds gunnery and drones, but also to some extent capacitor management and fitting skills. Skill progression for damage dealers are completely disjointed and separate from ship progression due to the fact that you'll perform better in a pirate faction than you would in a tech one hull no matter what your skills are. So as your skills improve you'll progress the same regardless if it's in a fancy ship or your old but trustworthy tech one battleship; You simply upgrade when your skills allow you to.
-Very few Command Ships have the range and utility needed to make them good for incursions in general, suffering the same problems as most ships with medium weaponry. But for the most part they can be fitted quite nicely for [[Incursion sites#Vanguard sites|vanguards]] and in some cases even for [[Incursion sites#Assault sites|assaults]].
-While better than standard battleships for vanguards, they are nowhere near as good as pirate faction battleships and usually suffer in terms of utility slots and small drone bays. That said, they could serve as a nice option for people who either have no interest in battleships or for those who already trained and flies Command Ships for other purposes, outside incursions. Just remember that while we'll gladly take Command Ships in our fleets, public communities may be a bit more restrictive.
+See [[Preparing for Incursions#Minimum skills for damage dealers|minimum]] and [[Preparing for Incursions#Recommended skills for damage dealers|recommended skills]] for a list of specific skills to train early on.
-{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:left; font-size:90%; border-collapse:collapse; border:1px solid #333333; padding:5px;"
+{|
+| valign="top" | {{icon|turret new|64}}
+| {{co|coral|Tech two weapons}}
+As soon as you have the skills for it, toss away those old meta turrets and replace them with your tech two turrets of choice. All ships, tech one battleships as well as pirate faction battleships benefit greatly from the much more powerful tech two turrets (and their advanced ammunition).
 |-
-! style="background:#222222;" | Races
+| valign="top" | {{icon|drones|64}}
-! style="background:#222222;" | Ship
+| {{co|coral|Improved drone skills}}
-! style="background:#222222;" | Description
-|- valign="top"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:logo_faction_caldari_state.png|64px]][[image:logo_ishukone.png|64px]]
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Vulture.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Vulture]] is a solid ship for both vanguards and assaults, capable of performing well even as a sniper. Lots of utility midslots and good range projection with railguns.
-|- valign="top"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:logo_faction_gallente_federation.png|64px]][[image:logo_duvolle_labs.png|64px]]
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Astarte.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Astarte]] has some amazing damage projection capabilities for vanguards, although it is severely lacking in terms of of range and tank for assaults and up, due to lack of midslots.
-|- valign="top"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:logo_faction_minmatar_republic.png|64px]][[image:logo_boundless_creation.png|64px]]
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Sleipnir.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Sleipnir]] stands out with exceptional tracking, range and good damage capabilities for vanguards, although it is a bit lacking in range and cannot really perform well in assaults.
-|}
-== Strategic cruisers ==
+There are several drone-related skills to help improve your performance. First training into '''medium drones''' and improving drone control range, then general '''drone support''' and '''specialization''' skills. Later on you might train '''heavy drones''' for headquarter sites or '''sentry drones''' for vanguard sites.
-Being cruiser hulls some strategic cruisers suffer from the same ailments as other ships with medium weaponry, but can often compensate by using long range weapons since the loss of pure tracking is often offset by the lower signature of medium weapons. They are also perfect for the [[Nation Consolidation Network]] assault sites, where the fleet splits up and parts of the fleet go through a gate only allowing cruiser-sized hulls.
+|-
+| valign="top" | [[File:icon_cogs.png|64px|link=]]
+| {{co|coral|Capacitor management}}
-While strategic cruisers cannot match the prowess of the pirate faction battleships, they perform above that of regular battleships. So if you like smaller, agile ships, strategic cruisers might be the answer you're looking for. Keep in mind that most public communities settle for one or two strategic cruisers, mostly a [[Loki]] for the long webs. As such it's less of an appealing option to fly strategic cruisers outside our community.
+Some skills improve basic capacitor regeneration, others reduce capacitor usage instead. Some ships will have little to no issues with cap, while others are much more subject to it and require very high skills. Implants play a small role in this as well, so your mileage will vary here depending on your skills, ship, fit and implants.
-{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:left; font-size:90%; border-collapse:collapse; border:1px solid #333333; padding:5px;"
 |-
-! style="background:#222222;" | Races
+| valign="top" | [[File:icon_cog.png|64px|link=]]
-! style="background:#222222;" | Ship
+| {{co|coral|Fitting skills}}
-! style="background:#222222;" | Description
-|- valign="top"
+Long range weapons and propulsion modules in particular put a lot of strain on your '''power grid''' while tech two weapons and damage upgrades require a lot of '''CPU'''. This is not an issue early on, but as you move into assaults and headquarters, you might need to train skills that reduce the power grid and CPU requirements as well as improving the base output of your ship.
-| nowrap style="padding:0px; text-align:center;" | [[image:logo_faction_amarr_empire.png|64px]]
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Legion.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Legion]] combines powerful short range capabilities with instant-swapping long range capabilities due to how crystals work. Ideal ship if you prefer smaller, more agile ships to the bulkier battleships.
-|- valign="top"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px; text-align:center;" | [[image:logo_faction_minmatar_republic.png|64px]]
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Loki.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Loki]] combines multiple webs with extreme tracking which makes it very useful. It also has the option to fit for longer webs, which isn't always needed but makes a world of difference when it is.
-|- valign="top"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px; text-align:center;" | [[image:logo_faction_gallente_federation.png|64px]]
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Proteus.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Proteus]] doesn't stand out quite as much as the Legion and Loki, but it's still a solid choice for people who like small ships. Due to range issues it's often forced to use railguns.
-|- valign="top"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px; text-align:center;" | [[image:logo_faction_caldari_state.png|64px]]
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Tengu.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Tengu]] is not something you'd ever train into for the sake of doing incursions, but it can still be useful if you have good skills and it's fitted properly with railguns. While missiles could work, they are less than ideal.
 |}
-== Pirate faction battleships ==
+[[Category:Incursions]][[Category:Fittings]]
-These ships are good ships all around, regardless of which type of site you do. Their slot layout is good, plenty of midslots, their ship bonuses are often purely offensive, making them ideal for incursions where tanking bonuses are highly overrated.
-{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:left; font-size:90%; border-collapse:collapse; border:1px solid #333333; padding:5px;"
-|-
-! style="background:#222222;" | Races
-! style="background:#222222;" | Ship
-! style="background:#222222;" | Description
-|- valign="top"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:logo_faction_minmatar_republic.png|64px]][[image:logo_faction_gallente_federation.png|64px]]
-| style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Machariel.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Machariel]] combines a flexible engagement range for autocannons with a high rate of fire. Fit for long range the impressive alpha is unmatched. It also has enough midslots to fit for any occasion.
-|- valign="top"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:logo_faction_amarr_empire.png|64px]][[image:logo_faction_caldari_state.png|64px]]
-| style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Nightmare.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Nightmare]] has very good damage at any range due to fast-swapping crystals and compensates for the innate low tracking of lasers with the ship's tracking bonus. It also has plenty of utility midslots available. Has some cap issues.
-|- valign="top"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | [[image:logo_faction_gallente_federation.png|64px]][[image:logo_faction_minmatar_republic.png|64px]]
-| style="padding:0px;" | [[image:Vindicator.jpg|64px]]
-| The [[Vindicator]] is a brawler without match, both in terms of damage and incredibly strong webs. Despite appearances, it is also a very potent sniper when fitted with railguns, and tech two ammo makes it possible to use blasters at medium range.
-|}