Difference between revisions of "User:Olly Wakwako/sandbox/Incursion Upgrades and Progression"

Latest revision as of 09:12, 12 May 2024

The EVE University Incursion Community doesn't require unistas to use fancy hulls and modules or put expensive implants into your head. If you wish, you may use our loaner battleships indefinitely. However, we encourage those that enjoy the content and have the means to upgrade their ships, as it opens the possibility to take part in other communities, and allows us to run Vanguards more effectively

There are a lot of ways to spend ISK on your incursion character in order to improve your performance, be that buying a pirate faction battleship, getting faction and deadspace modules or injecting implants into your head. Some of these options are more effective than others, so before you start "throwing ISK at the problem" with wild abandon ... take a moment to consider your options.

In general we suggest making upgrades following this rough order, designed to prioritize upgrades which require less time and ISK investment and which provide the largest benefit:

We suggest that unistas use the loaner battleships provided by the Incursions Community until you can afford to buy a Pirate Faction Battleship. At that point, you should buy yourself the full starter fit for your preferred hull.
You should at this point train towards the appropriate Tier II weapon system for the hull you have chosen.
Following this, as you gain ISK, you should replace modules, slowly upgrading from Tier II to faction or deadspace.
You could also consider at this point training Cybernetics V and buying a WS-618 warp speed implant.
Once you have fully upgraded your Pirate Battleship, you should consider training into the Marauder which shares a weapon system with your current ship (Vargur from Machariel, Kronos from Vindicator, Paladin from Nightmare).
Following buying and fitting a Marauder, you should finish by completing your implant set following the Implants Guide.

Ship progression

Progression varies a little between the roles of logistics and damage dealers, but is somewhat straight forward with easily identified high-end ships to aim for.

Logistics

The Oneiros is the optimal logistics ship for Vanguard sites. There is little in terms of hull progression in this regard - the best progression opportunity is skill-based, and comes in the training of Logistics Cruisers V, which affords a significant improvement in capacitor stability as compared to Logistics Cruisers IV.

Despite this, there are other ships that are more than capable of providing the logistics we require in our fleets. Of these, the most notable is the Nestor, which is commonly seen in Headquarters sites owing to its overwhelming remote repair power. The Nestor is significantly more expensive compared to the Oneiros, and the benefits it provides to those running Headquarters sites are not so relevant in Vanguard sites.

Oneiros

The is cap stable on its own and does not require a cap chain to run all its remote armor repairers. That and the bonus to remote tracking computers means it's favored in any fleet. It is also allowed in headquarters sites, though moreso for the remote tracking computers than the logistics it can provide.

Gallente Cruiser
Remote Armor Repair Systems
Sensor Linking (favored in vanguard sites for their remote tracking computer bonus)

Nestor

The is an extremely proficient logistics ship, able to dish out an overwhelming amount of remote repairs. Having one opens the door to trying out logistics in a Headquarters fleet. However, the Nestor does not represent a progression from the Oneiros for a fleet running Vanguard sites (particularly as it does not have a bonus to remote tracking computers). Though it can fit a local armor repair module, it does not benefit from the same benefits as the Marauders, and does not benefit from the small signature of the Logistics Cruisers, so is marginal on tank for Vanguards.

Amarr Battleship
Gallente Battleship
Though we do not normally use damage dealing drones on our logistics ships, Drone skills could be useful as the Nestor is bonused for drone hitpoints and damage.

Damage dealers

Pirate faction battleships

The Nightmare and Vindicator are the preferred intermediate hullsfor incursions due to a combination of higher base stats, better bonuses and better slot layouts as compared to T1 battleships and the Praxis. The Machariel is also acceptable, but armor Machariels struggle with a lack of lowslots, and are not accepted in headquarters fleets.

Some of these have a natural progression, like the Maelstrom pilot only needing Gallente Battleship to move into a Machariel and a Hyperion pilot only needing to train Minmatar Battleship to get into the Vindicator. Left a bit on the side is the Rokh with a low priority synergy with the Nightmare given the Caldari Battleship skill and a slightly stronger synergy with the Vindicator given that they both use the Large Hybrid Turret skill for their guns.

Training up a racial battleship skill from scratch to III takes less than four days and training a new racial turret skill to III is about a day and a half, so even if some of these ships have natural progression; don't feel like you're a slave to your initial choice of ship or weaponry.

Nightmare

The has very good damage at any range due to fast-swapping crystals and compensates for the innate low tracking of lasers with the ship's tracking bonus. It also has plenty of utility midslots available. Has some cap issues putting some pressure on good cap skills.

Amarr Battleship (increases turret tracking speed)
Caldari Battleship (low priority as the afterburner effect is never used)
Large Energy Turret increases damage

Vindicator

The is a brawler without match, both in terms of damage and incredibly strong webs. Despite appearances, it can also apply at range with Null ammunition once upgraded with Tech II blasters.

Gallente Battleship ^[1] (increases turret tracking speed)
Minmatar Battleship ^[1] (highest priority as it increases webifier effectiveness)
Large Hybrid Turret increases damage

Machariel

The Machariel struggles a little bit as an armor ship. With its resists and lack of low slots, it can only fit two damage modules. You should only choose this ship if you already have one, or if you desperately want to progress into the Vargur and don't want to cross-train into a different ship (the Vindicator has shared Battleship skills so might be a good choice instead).

The combines a flexible engagement range for autocannons with a high rate of fire. Fit for long range the impressive alpha is unmatched, although it does suffer comparably with lower overall DPS. It also has enough midslots to fit for any occasion.

Gallente Battleship ^[1] (increases turret falloff)
Minmatar Battleship ^[1] (highest priority increases turret damage)
Large Projectile Turret increases damage

^ ^a ^b ^c ^d Gallente Battleship and Minmatar Battleship are shared between both the Machariel and the Vindicator, so if you like flying multiple hulls you'd have the ship skills covered and you'd only need to train a new racial turret skill.

Marauders

These ships are the apex of Incursions. Owing to their ability to equip the Bastion Module I, they possess a tremendous amount of stopping power. It is not unheard of to have Paladins doing over 3000 DPS, and Kronoses doing over 4000 DPS. Not only this, but they are able to tank the incoming DPS of any site alone (though not always indefinitely). Each of the pirate hulls naturally leads to one of the Marauders - the Nightmare to the Paladin, the Machariel to the Vargur, and the Vindicator to the Kronos.

Paladin

The is the king of projection - it can apply over 2000 DPS at ranges of 70km or more without breaking a sweat. To pay for this, it suffers from a lack of midslots, hampering it's versatility, anemic tracking, and somewhat poor capacitor life.

Amarr Battleship Improves capacitor and range projection
Marauders Increases damage and tank
Large Energy Turret Increases damage

Kronos

The is the poster child of raw damage - within 30km it can dump out 4000 DPS with sufficient tracking to apply to frigates as well as cruisers. It suffers from a lack of projection, but can compensate somewhat with its mid slots.

Gallente Battleship Improves damage and range
Marauders Increases tank and tracking speed
Large Hybrid Turret Increases damage

Vargur

Armour tanked Vargurs are not very good. However, as the Marauders mostly rely on local reps, we tend to allow shield-tanked Vargurs at FCs discretion.

The is the definition of a tank. Though it is somewhat forced into being shield tanked, it can easily be fit to survive inside a site alone from downtime to downtime. Sitting somewhat in the middle of the Paladin and Kronos in terms of projection, application, and damage, it makes a good all rounder. However, the Jack of all trades is the master of none, so the Vargur is slightly disfavored compared to the other turreted Marauders.

Minmatar Battleship Improves damage and projection
Marauders Increases tank and tracking speed
Large Projectile Turret Increases damage

Summary

In almost all cases, upgrading your hull should be your first goal if you're looking to invest more ISK. Generally speaking for hisec, while faction and deadspace modules are great, pirate faction hulls often give superior bonuses without inflating the value of droppable modules fit to your ship. In the case of Incursions specifically, the matter comes down to the pirate faction battleships having two damage bonuses and powerful role bonuses (instead of having an offensive and a defensive bonus), plus much better overall ship stats such as align time.

Below lists a table comparing the ships along each progression line, from Apocalypse Navy to Paladin, from Megathron to Kronos, and from Tempest Fleet to Vargur. The T1 battleships were fitted somewhat similarly to an entry-level fit, with Tech 2 damage modules and midslots. The pirate faction hulls were fitted with a more advanced fit with faction damage modules, and the Marauders were fitted akin to our optimal fits. This table assumes all skills trained to level 5, all with T2 guns shooting the commonly used short-range ammunition (Conflagration, Faction Antimatter, and Hail). Sensor boosters are assumed to have scan resolution scripts loaded, and tracking computers are assumed to favor optimal range (e.g. 2 range scripts to 1 tracking speed script). The fits are simulated with no implants, drugs or drones, and with close range ammunition loaded, with passive modules + turrets active.

Statistic	Energy Turrets			Hybrid Turrets			Projectile Turrets
Statistic	Apoc. Navy	Nightmare	Paladin	Megathron	Vindicator	Kronos	Tempest Fleet	Machariel	Vargur
Raw DPS	940	1175	2815	1110	1310	2689	1061	1307	2786
Tracking Speed	5.28	5.28	3.99 ^[1]	11.6	7.96 ^[2]	12.1	5.27	5.27	8.17
Optimal / Falloff	24.9km / 16.2km	20.5km / 20.5km	28km / 20.1km	5.17km / 16.2km	5.17km / 15.6km	6.99km / 36.1km	3.9km / 30.4km	3.9km / 43.6km	4.5km / 54.4km
Capacitor Life	20:39	7:43	12:32	20:14	Stable +3.41 GJ/s	Stable +8.31 GJ/s	Stable +14.5 GJ/s	Stable +14.3 GJ/s	Stable +17.9 GJ/s
Armor EHP	46.7k	40.2k	65.1k	51.2k	38.9k	61.6k	47.0k	44.9k	73.4k ^[3]
Scan Resolution	312 mm	584 mm	516 mm	248 mm	188 mm ^[2]	516 mm	396 mm	666 mm	371 mm
Signature Radius	388 m	388 m	420 m	399 m	428 m	420 m	374 m	380 m	380 m
Drone Capacity	100 m³	75 m³	75 m³	75[[m3}}	125 m³	125 m³	100 m³	125 m³	75 m³
Warp Speed	3.6 AU/s	3.75 AU/s	3.5 AU/s ^[4]	3.6 AU/s	3.75 AU/s	3.5 AU/s ^[4]	3.6 AU/s	3.75 AU/s ^[5]	3.5 AU/s ^[4]
Price	640M	1.87B	4.61B	555M	3.24B	4.69B	758M	1.46B	4.38B

^ The Paladin does not receive a hull bonus for tracking, however loading Imperial Navy Multifrequency bumps the tracking up to 5.7 while maintaining around 2200 DPS.
^ ^a ^b This statistic is slightly misleading as the Vindicators in fleet are often provided with remote tracking computers and sensor boosters from the logistics and booster pilots.
^ The prototype Vargur fit is shield tanked. The Armor EHP value is listed is the shield EHP of this fit..
^ ^a ^b ^c None of the Marauder fits have a hyperspatial rig so as to maintain compatibility with headquarters groups
^ The Machariel fit is the only one which does not include a hyperspatial rig, as the hull is innately bonused for warp speed.

Fit progression

As the new armor doctrine is thoroughly tested, fits here may change.

For the most part, fit progression is really only relevant for high-end ships like the three pirate faction battleships and marauders mentioned above. Logistics ships use pretty much the same rigs, changing only a few modules based on their desired fit. Remember that upgrading from a regular battleship to a pirate faction battleship alone is a big upgrade and the best use of your ISK for the initial upgrade.

The decision that has the most influence on the shape of your fit is your choice of rigs. That choice also heavily influences the amount of ISK you need to front to make the fit work. The examples below will follow our fitting principle of using rigs that are compatible with headquarters groups, and we suggest you strongly consider this when you fit your own ships. However, these are not the only way to make fits work, and if you only ever plan on running with the EVE University Incursion Community, you could consider a more aggressive choice of rigs (e.g. swapping a tank rig with a DPS rig).

Cheap

For a cheap initial fit, we will limit ourselves to Tech 1 rigs and Tech 2 tank modules, avoid faction and deadspace entirely. Here is how a Nightmare fit might look before adding any utility modules.

Nightmare: Incursions (Vanguards

EFT

[Nightmare, Incursions (Vanguards]
Mega Modal Pulse Laser I
Mega Modal Pulse Laser I
Mega Modal Pulse Laser I
Mega Modal Pulse Laser I

Damage Control II
Multispectrum Energized Membrane II
Multispectrum Energized Membrane II
1600mm Steel Plates II

Large Explosive Armor Reinforcer I
Large Kinetic Armor Reinforcer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I

FITTING DIFFICULTY

EVE VERSION

2024.2.4

ALPHA CAN USE

NO

EFT

SKILLS

NOTES

RECOMMENDED SKILLS

NOTES

In this fit, the use of Tech 2 Energized Membranes means that the resists fall slightly short of our target of 67%. To mitigate this, a 1600mm plate is included.

Effective

By upgrading our tank modules to the faction variants and upgrading our turrets and rigs to Tech 2, we gain a nice bump in damage and can forego the inclusion of a plate, freeing up a lowslot for a damage module. Here is a Vindicator fit demonstrating this:

Vindicator: Incursions (Vangards

EFT

[Vindicator, Incursions (Vangards]
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II

Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Multispectrum Energized Membrane
Imperial Navy Multispectrum Energized Membrane

Large Explosive Armor Reinforcer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator II

FITTING DIFFICULTY

EVE VERSION

2024.2.4

ALPHA CAN USE

NO

EFT

SKILLS

NOTES

RECOMMENDED SKILLS

NOTES

Here, we meet the resist threshold, and have sufficient armor HP to avoid including a plate. The Vindicator has a different set of rigs as compared to the Nightmare, but the principles still hold true.

Optimal

By using deadspace modules and faction damage controls, as well as Tech 2 rigs and turrets, we arrive at the optimal fit. These fits can sometimes be slightly undertanked as compared to a strict reading of our fitting principles. Though the tank is still perfectly within reason (the fit below meets 69% in all except thermal, where it only gets to 63.5%), we can get away with this through "DPS tank", as well as with a pilot broadcasting early and letting logi know over comms so that they can get on top of the incoming damage.

Nightmare: Incursions (Vanguards

EFT

[Nightmare, Incursions (Vanguards]
Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II

Syndicate Damage Control
Corpum A-Type Multispectrum Energized Membrane

Large Explosive Armor Reinforcer II
Large Kinetic Armor Reinforcer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

FITTING DIFFICULTY

EVE VERSION

2024.2.4

ALPHA CAN USE

NO

EFT

SKILLS

NOTES

RECOMMENDED SKILLS

NOTES

This fit has somewhat of a thermal hole, but reaches 69% or higher in every other area, and only uses two tank modules to do so.

Faction and deadspace modules

First of all, remember that getting a pirate faction hull is always going to give you better applied damage (and often many other advantages) compared to spending ISK on faction and deadspace modules on a tech 1 battleship. With the exception of the Federation Navy or Serpentis Stasis Webifier and tech two weapons, it is recommended that you get a better hull long before you look into upgrading modules.

Consider the actual benefit you will get from upgrading a certain module. Getting a deadspace hardener is useful for most ships as it frees up a midslot. But even though a faction tracking computer or a sensor booster might make sense for public fleets built to compete, for our community that isn't going to be as worthwhile of an investment as we usually don't compete.

What do you get in return?

To put this into perspective you need to factor in stacking penalties. If you're just using one module to a given effect, it's easy to calculate and see the difference, but when you have more intricate combinations where things end up 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th in the stacking hierarchy, it might be a little harder to see what you get out of it.

Module variants and price deviation

When you're shopping for faction or deadspace modules, check all equivalent variants for price deviations. For example, the Federation Navy Tracking Computer is identical in all but the name to the Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer and their prices fluctuate over time, so use the Show Info and Compare-feature ingame to find potential alternatives and you might save millions.

Injecting implants

There are plenty of hardwiring implants that are useful for incursion runners, with effects ranging from damage projection (tracking, damage or rate of fire) to fitting/support related effects (increased capacitor, powergrid or CPU) and warp speed. The bonuses from implants do not suffer stacking penalties, thus even the +3% variants are quite potent and cheap enough to use even while at war due to the low risk of actually losing your pod.

The best hardwiring implants (apart from officer implants) come from the CONCORD Loyalty Point store and give a +6% bonus but require Cybernetics V. Implants are available for all skills and wallets however, ranging from the 1%, 3% and 5% implants of normal LP stores to the CONCORD specific 2%, 4% and 6% implants.

As with all things, do your research and see if it's cheaper to simply buy it off of the market instead of getting it yourself from the LP store. See hardwiring implants for a full list of available implants.

See the Incursion Community Implant Guide for more information about recommended implants. This guide will cover the two types of implants that we suggest: Skill Hardwiring (slots 6-10) and Attribute Enhancing (slots 1-5). These implants are not required to fly in our community, but they do greatly improve ship performance. In order to use any of the implants listed in this guide, you will need to have the Cybernetics skill trained to at least level V. This will allow you to use 6% implants, which can be purchased with Concord Loyalty Points (LP) earned by running Incursions. These implants can be found at Concord Stations and cost 250 million ISK and 250,000 LP.

Skill progression

For the most part skill progression is as simple as just topping off the minimum skills you needed to get ready and perhaps train a couple of new skills to be able to use a different set of drones or a situational module. There are however some differences between skill progression for logistics and damage dealers.

Logistics

Progression for logistics is practically an intertwined mess of both fit and skill progression, as skills like Logistics Cruisers V and all the support skills all play a vital role. The more powerful tech two remote shield boosters require better fitting skills and utility modules require more cap, at the same time you want to use less fitting modules to free up room for even more utility modules while still keeping a good enough tank.

See minimum and recommended skills for a list of specific skills to train early on to quickly move into the recommended and advanced logistics fits.

Implants

It's possible to change the priority or shorten the train early on by using implants to improve your capacitor regeneration or fitting room. This is because logistics have relatively small capacitor capacity and even small changes can often make or break a fit. See recommended implants for more information.

Damage dealers

Most of the progression in terms of skill for damage dealers surrounds gunnery and drones, but also to some extent capacitor management and fitting skills. Skill progression for damage dealers are completely disjointed and separate from ship progression due to the fact that you'll perform better in a pirate faction than you would in a tech one hull no matter what your skills are. So as your skills improve you'll progress the same regardless if it's in a fancy ship or your old but trustworthy tech one battleship; You simply upgrade when your skills allow you to.

See minimum and recommended skills for a list of specific skills to train early on.

	Tech two weapons As soon as you have the skills for it, toss away those old meta turrets and replace them with your tech two turrets of choice. All ships, tech one battleships as well as pirate faction battleships benefit greatly from the much more powerful tech two turrets (and their advanced ammunition).
	Improved drone skills There are several drone-related skills to help improve your performance. First improving drone control range, then general drone support and specialization skills. Later on you might train heavy drones for headquarter sites or sentry drones for vanguard sites.
	Capacitor management Some skills improve basic capacitor regeneration, others reduce capacitor usage instead. Some ships will have little to no issues with cap, while others are much more subject to it and require very high skills. Implants play a small role in this as well, so your mileage will vary here depending on your skills, ship, fit and implants.
	Fitting skills Long range weapons and propulsion modules in particular put a lot of strain on your power grid while tech two weapons and damage upgrades require a lot of CPU. This is not an issue early on, but as you move into assaults and headquarters, you might need to train skills that reduce the power grid and CPU requirements as well as improving the base output of your ship.

Planning ahead

Unless you are already heavily invested into a certain race or weapon system, it might be a good idea to think of which ship (or ships) you'll want in the end, rather than what your first incursion ship should be. Don't worry too much about it though, as the race specific ship and weapon skills you train for the minimum skills only amount to a little over five days worth of training. So changing your mind along the way wouldn't be much of a detour.

You should also consider secondary value of whatever you train, perhaps you can find an end-of-the-line ship that not only furthers your goals for incursions but other goals as well given the skills you'll end up training for it. If you already know that you like smaller ships, or have plans for diving into a wormhole in the future, it would make much more sense training into a strategic cruiser than a pirate faction battleship.

So take some time to consider which racial ship line, what racial weapons would benefit you doing missions, exploration, PvP or whatever else you'd like to do in EVE.

[galmin-1] Gallente Battleship and Minmatar Battleship are shared between both the Machariel and the Vindicator, so if you like flying multiple hulls you'd have the ship skills covered and you'd only need to train a new racial turret skill.

[paladin-2] The Paladin does not receive a hull bonus for tracking, however loading Imperial Navy Multifrequency bumps the tracking up to 5.7 while maintaining around 2200 DPS.

[vindi-3] This statistic is slightly misleading as the Vindicators in fleet are often provided with remote tracking computers and sensor boosters from the logistics and booster pilots.

[vargur-4] The prototype Vargur fit is shield tanked. The Armor EHP value is listed is the shield EHP of this fit..

[marauder_warp-5] None of the Marauder fits have a hyperspatial rig so as to maintain compatibility with headquarters groups

[mach-6] The Machariel fit is the only one which does not include a hyperspatial rig, as the hull is innately bonused for warp speed.

[1]

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

Difference between revisions of "User:Olly Wakwako/sandbox/Incursion Upgrades and Progression"

Latest revision as of 09:12, 12 May 2024

Contents

Ship progression

Logistics

Oneiros

Nestor

Damage dealers

Pirate faction battleships

Nightmare

Vindicator

Machariel

Marauders

Paladin

Kronos

Vargur

Summary

Fit progression

Cheap

Effective

Optimal

Faction and deadspace modules

What do you get in return?

Module variants and price deviation

Injecting implants

Skill progression

Logistics

Damage dealers

Planning ahead

Navigation menu

Personal tools

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@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 {{Incursions links}}
-= Overview =
 {{important note box|The [[EVE University Incursion Community]] doesn't require '''unistas''' to use fancy hulls and modules or put expensive implants into your head. If you wish, you may use our loaner battleships indefinitely. However, we encourage those that enjoy the content and have the means to upgrade their ships, as it opens the possibility to take part in other communities, and allows us to run Vanguards more effectively}}
 There are a lot of ways to spend ISK on your incursion character in order to improve your performance, be that '''buying a pirate faction battleship''', getting '''faction and deadspace modules''' or '''injecting implants''' into your head. Some of these options are more effective than others, so before you start ''"throwing ISK at the problem"'' with wild abandon ... take a moment to consider your options.
-In general we suggest making upgrades following this rough order, designed to prioritize upgrades which reuiqre less time and isk investment and which provide the largest benefit:
+In general we suggest making upgrades following this rough order, designed to prioritize upgrades which require less time and ISK investment and which provide the largest benefit:
 * We suggest that unistas use the loaner battleships provided by the Incursions Community until you can afford to buy a Pirate Faction Battleship. At that point, you should buy yourself the full starter fit for your preferred hull.
 * You should at this point train towards the appropriate Tier II weapon system for the hull you have chosen.
-* Following this, as you gain isk, you should replace modules, slowly upgrading from Tier II to faction or deadspace.
+* Following this, as you gain ISK, you should replace modules, slowly upgrading from Tier II to faction or deadspace.
-* You could also consider at this point training Cypernetics V and buying a WS-618 warp speed implant.
+* You could also consider at this point training Cybernetics V and buying a WS-618 warp speed implant.
-* Once you have fully upgraded your Pirate Battleship, you should consider training into the Marauder which shares a weapon system with your current ship (Vargur from Macheriel, Kronos from Vindicator, Paladin from Nightmare).
+* Once you have fully upgraded your Pirate Battleship, you should consider training into the Marauder which shares a weapon system with your current ship (Vargur from Machariel, Kronos from Vindicator, Paladin from Nightmare).
 * Following buying and fitting a Marauder, you should finish by completing your implant set following the Implants Guide.
-= Ship progression =
+== Ship progression ==
 Progression varies a little between the roles of [[Roles in Incursions#Logistics|logistics]] and [[Roles in Incursions#Damage dealers|damage dealers]], but is somewhat straight forward with easily identified high-end ships to aim for.
-== Logistics ==
+=== Logistics ===
 The Oneiros is the optimal logistics ship for Vanguard sites. There is little in terms of hull progression in this regard - the best progression opportunity is skill-based, and comes in the training of {{sk|Logistics Cruisers|V}}, which affords a significant improvement in capacitor stability as compared to Logistics Cruisers IV.
@@ Line 27: / Line 22: @@
 ==== Oneiros ====
 {| style="padding:0px;"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_tech2.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|minmatar|48}}</div>[[File:Oneiros.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_tech2.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|gallente|48}}</div>[[File:Oneiros.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
-| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Oneiros|tooltip}} is cap stable on its own and does not require a cap chain to run all its remote armour repairers. That and the bonus to '''remote tracking computers''' means it's favoured in any fleet.
+| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Oneiros|tooltip}} is cap stable on its own and does not require a cap chain to run all its remote armor repairers. That and the bonus to '''remote tracking computers''' means it's favored in any fleet. It is also allowed in headquarters sites, though moreso for the remote tracking computers than the logistics it can provide.
 {{icon|gallente2|28}}{{sk|Gallente Cruiser}}<br>
 [[File:Icon remote armor repair i.png|28px]]{{sk|Remote Armor Repair Systems}}<br>
-{{icon|remote tracking computer|28}}{{sk|Sensor Linking}} (favoured in [[Incursion sites#Vanguard sites|vanguard sites]] for their '''remote tracking computer''' bonus)
+{{icon|remote tracking computer|28}}{{sk|Sensor Linking}} (favored in [[Incursion sites#Vanguard sites|vanguard sites]] for their '''remote tracking computer''' bonus)
 |}
 ==== Nestor ====
 {| style="padding:0px;"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_tech2.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|caldari|48}}</div>[[File:Nestor.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_tech2.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|sisters|48}}</div>[[File:Nestor.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
-| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Nestor|tooltip}} is an extremely versatile ship, that is capable of not only self-tanking a Vanguard site, but also dishing out an overwhelming amount of remote repairs. The Nestor does not represent a progression from the Oneiros for a fleet running Vanguard sites (particularly as it does not have a bonus to remote tracking computers), but having one opens the door to trying out logistics in a Headquarters fleet.
+| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Nestor|tooltip}} is an extremely proficient logistics ship, able to dish out an overwhelming amount of remote repairs. Having one opens the door to trying out logistics in a Headquarters fleet. However, the Nestor does not represent a progression from the Oneiros for a fleet running Vanguard sites (particularly as it does not have a bonus to remote tracking computers). Though it can fit a local armor repair module, it does not benefit from the same benefits as the Marauders, and does not benefit from the small signature of the Logistics Cruisers, so is marginal on tank for Vanguards.
 {{icon|amarr2|28}}{{sk|Amarr Battleship}}<br>
 {{icon|gallente2|28}}{{sk|Gallente Battleship}}<br>
-{{icon|drones|28}}The Nestor is bonused for drone hitpoints and damage.
+{{icon|drones|28}}Though we do not normally use damage dealing drones on our logistics ships, [[Drones#Skills|Drone skills]] could be useful as the Nestor is bonused for drone hitpoints and damage.
 |}
-== Damage Dealers ==
+=== Damage dealers ===
 === Pirate faction battleships ===
-The '''Nightmare''' and '''Vindicator''' are the preferred ''intermediate hulls''for incursions due to a combination of higher base stats, better bonuses and better slot layouts as compared to T1 battleships and the Praxis. The '''Machariel''' is also acceptable, but armour Machariels struggle with a lack of lowslots, and are not accepted in headquarters fleets.
+The '''Nightmare''' and '''Vindicator''' are the preferred ''intermediate hulls''for incursions due to a combination of higher base stats, better bonuses and better slot layouts as compared to T1 battleships and the Praxis. The '''Machariel''' is also acceptable, but armor Machariels struggle with a lack of lowslots, and are not accepted in headquarters fleets.
 Some of these have a natural progression, like the [[Vanguard Incursion fits#Maelstrom|Maelstrom]] pilot only needing {{sk|Gallente Battleship}} to move into a '''Machariel''' and a [[Vanguard Incursion fits#Hyperion|Hyperion]] pilot only needing to train {{sk|Minmatar Battleship}} to get into the '''Vindicator'''. Left a bit on the side is the [[Vanguard Incursion fits#Rokh|Rokh]] with a low priority synergy with the '''Nightmare''' given the {{sk|Caldari Battleship}} skill and a slightly stronger synergy with the '''Vindicator''' given that they both use the {{sk|Large Hybrid Turret}} skill for their guns.
@@ Line 57: / Line 51: @@
 ==== Nightmare ====
 {| style="padding:0px;"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|sansha's nation|48}}</div>[[File:Nightmare.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|sansha's nation|48}}</div>[[File:Nightmare.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
 | valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Nightmare|tooltip}} has very good damage at any range due to fast-swapping crystals and compensates for the innate low tracking of lasers with the ship's tracking bonus. It also has plenty of utility midslots available. Has some cap issues putting some pressure on good cap skills.
 {{icon|amarr2|28}}{{sk|Amarr Battleship}} (increases turret tracking speed)<br>
 {{icon|caldari2|28}}{{sk|Caldari Battleship}} (low priority as the afterburner effect is never used)<br>
-{{icon|large pulse laser|28}}{{sk|Large Energy Turret}}
+{{icon|large pulse laser|28}}{{sk|Large Energy Turret}} increases damage
 |}
 ==== Vindicator ====
 {| style="padding:0px;"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|serpentis|48}}</div>[[File:Vindicator.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|serpentis|48}}</div>[[File:Vindicator.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
 | valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Vindicator|tooltip}} is a brawler without match, both in terms of damage and incredibly strong webs. Despite appearances, it can also apply at range with Null ammunition once upgraded with Tech II blasters.
 {{icon|gallente2|28}}{{sk|Gallente Battleship}}<small>&nbsp;<ref name="galmin">{{sk|Gallente Battleship}} and {{sk|Minmatar Battleship}} are shared between both the [[Machariel]] and the [[Vindicator]], so if you like flying multiple hulls you'd have the ship skills covered and you'd only need to train a new racial turret skill.</ref></small> (increases turret tracking speed)<br>
 {{icon|minmatar2|28}}{{sk|Minmatar Battleship}}<small>&nbsp;<ref name="galmin"/></small> (highest priority as it increases webifier effectiveness)<br>
-{{icon|large blaster|28}}{{sk|Large Hybrid Turret}}
+{{icon|large blaster|28}}{{sk|Large Hybrid Turret}} increases damage
 |}
 ==== Machariel ====
+{{important note box|The Machariel struggles a little bit as an armor ship. With its resists and lack of low slots, it can only fit two damage modules. You should only choose this ship if you already have one, or if you desperately want to progress into the Vargur and don't want to cross-train into a different ship (the Vindicator has shared Battleship skills so might be a good choice instead).}}
-{{important note box|The Macheriel struggles a little bit as an armour ship. With its resists and lack of low slots, it can only fit two damage modules. You should only choose this ship if you already have one, or if you desparately want to progress into the Vargur and don't want to cross-train into a different ship (the Vinidcator has shared Battleship skills so might be a good choice instead).}}
 {| style="padding:0px;"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|angel cartel|48}}</div>[[File:Machariel.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|angel cartel|48}}</div>[[File:Machariel.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
-| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Machariel|tooltip}} combines a flexible engagement range for autocannons with a high rate of fire. Fit for long range the impressive alpha is unmatched, although it does suffer comparably with lower overall dps. It also has enough midslots to fit for any occasion.
+| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Machariel|tooltip}} combines a flexible engagement range for autocannons with a high rate of fire. Fit for long range the impressive alpha is unmatched, although it does suffer comparably with lower overall DPS. It also has enough midslots to fit for any occasion.
 {{icon|gallente2|28}}{{sk|Gallente Battleship}}<small>&nbsp;<ref name="galmin"/></small> (increases turret falloff)<br>
@@ Line 98: / Line 86: @@
 === Marauders ===
 These ships are the apex of Incursions. Owing to their ability to equip the Bastion Module I, they possess a tremendous amount of stopping power. It is not unheard of to have Paladins doing over 3000 DPS, and Kronoses doing over 4000 DPS. Not only this, but they are able to tank the incoming DPS of any site alone (though not always indefinitely). Each of the pirate hulls naturally leads to one of the Marauders - the Nightmare to the Paladin, the Machariel to the Vargur, and the Vindicator to the Kronos.
 ==== Paladin ====
 {| style="padding:0px;"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|amarr empire|48}}</div>[[File:Paladin.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|amarr empire|48}}</div>[[File:Paladin.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
-| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Paladin|tooltip}} is the king of projection - it can apply over 2000 DPS at ranges of 70km or more without breaking a sweat. To pay for this, it suffers slightly from a lack of midslots, hampering it's versatility, and aenemic tracking, and somewhat poor capacitor life.
+| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Paladin|tooltip}} is the king of projection - it can apply over 2000 DPS at ranges of 70km or more without breaking a sweat. To pay for this, it suffers from a lack of midslots, hampering it's versatility, anemic tracking, and somewhat poor capacitor life.
 {{icon|amarr2|28}}{{sk|Amarr Battleship}} Improves capacitor and range projection<br>
@@ Line 113: / Line 99: @@
 ==== Kronos  ====
 {| style="padding:0px;"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|gallente federation|48}}</div>[[File:Kronos.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|gallente federation|48}}</div>[[File:Kronos.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
-| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Kronos|tooltip}} is the poster child of raw damage - within 30km it can dump out 4000 DPS with sufficient tracking to apply to frigates as well as cruisers. It suffers from a lack of projection to be sure, but with a few extra midslots it can fit extra tracking computers to compensate somewhat.
+| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Kronos|tooltip}} is the poster child of raw damage - within 30km it can dump out 4000 DPS with sufficient tracking to apply to frigates as well as cruisers. It suffers from a lack of projection, but can compensate somewhat with its mid slots.
 {{icon|gallente2|28}}{{sk|Gallente Battleship}} Improves damage and range<br>
@@ Line 122: / Line 107: @@
 {{icon|large blaster|28}}{{sk|Large Hybrid Turret}} Increases damage
 |}
 ==== Vargur ====
+{{note box|Armour tanked Vargurs are not very good. However, as the Marauders mostly rely on local reps, we tend to allow shield-tanked Vargurs at FCs discretion.}}
-{{note box|Armour tanked Varugrs are not very good. However, as the Marauders mostly rely on local reps, we tend to allow shield-tanked Vargurs at FCs discretion.}}
 {| style="padding:0px;"
-| nowrap style="padding:0px;" valign="top" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|minmater republic|48}}</div>[[File:Vargur.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
+| nowrap style="padding:0px;" | <div style="border:1px solid #525252; position:relative;"><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:0px; left:0px">[[File:Icon_faction.png|24px|link=]]</div><div style="border:0px; position:absolute; top:80px; left:80px;">{{icon|minmatar republic|48}}</div>[[File:Vargur.jpg|128px|link=]]</div>
-| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Vargur|tooltip}} is the definition of a tank. Though it is somewhat forced into being shield tanked, it can easily be fit to survive inside a site alone from downtime to downtime. Sitting somewhat in the middle of the Paladin and Kronos in terms of projection, application, and damage, it makes a good all rounder. However, the Jack of all trades is the master of none, so the Vargur is slightly disfavoured compared to the other turretted Marauders.
+| valign="top" style="padding:4px;" | The {{ship|Vargur|tooltip}} is the definition of a tank. Though it is somewhat forced into being shield tanked, it can easily be fit to survive inside a site alone from downtime to downtime. Sitting somewhat in the middle of the Paladin and Kronos in terms of projection, application, and damage, it makes a good all rounder. However, the Jack of all trades is the master of none, so the Vargur is slightly disfavored compared to the other turreted Marauders.
 {{icon|minmatar2|28}}{{sk|Minmatar Battleship}} Improves damage and projection<br>
@@ Line 138: / Line 121: @@
 === Summary ===
+In almost all cases, upgrading your hull should be your first goal if you're looking to invest more ISK. Generally speaking for hisec, while faction and deadspace modules are great, pirate faction hulls often give superior bonuses without inflating the value of droppable modules fit to your ship. In the case of Incursions specifically, the matter comes down to the pirate faction battleships having two damage bonuses and powerful role bonuses (instead of having an offensive and a defensive bonus), plus much better overall ship stats such as align time.
+Below lists a table comparing the ships along each progression line, from Apocalypse Navy to Paladin, from Megathron to Kronos, and from Tempest Fleet to Vargur. The T1 battleships were fitted somewhat similarly to an entry-level fit, with Tech 2 damage modules and midslots. The pirate faction hulls were fitted with a more advanced fit with faction damage modules, and the Marauders were fitted akin to our optimal fits.  This table assumes all skills trained to level 5, all with T2 guns shooting the commonly used short-range ammunition (Conflagration, Faction Antimatter, and Hail). Sensor boosters are assumed to have scan resolution scripts loaded, and tracking computers are assumed to favor optimal range (e.g. 2 range scripts to 1 tracking speed script). The fits are simulated with no implants, drugs or drones, and with close range ammunition loaded, with passive modules + turrets active.
-In almost all cases, upgrading your hull should be your first goal if you're looking to invest more ISK. Generally speaking for hisec, while faction and deadspace modules are great, pirate faction hulls often give superior bonuses without inflating the value of droppable modules fit to your ship. In the case of Incursions specifically, the matter comes down to the pirate faction battleships having two damage bonuses and powerful role bonuses (instead of having an offensive and a defensive bonus), plus much better overall ship stats such as align time.
-Below is a list of some of the differences (relevant to incursions) for a [[Vindicator]] compared to a Megathron, a [[Machariel]] compared to a Tempest, and a [[Nightmare]] compared to a Apocalypse.
+{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center; font-size:90%;"
-{| class="wikitable" style="font-size:90%;"
 |- style="background-color: #222222;"
-! Improvements
+! rowspan=2 | Statistic
-! Hyperion &raquo; Vindicator
+! colspan=3 | Energy Turrets
-! Maelstrom &raquo; Machariel
+! colspan=3 | Hybrid Turrets
-! Praxis &raquo; Nightmare
+! colspan=3 | Projectile Turrets
 |-
-| {{icon|turret new|24}} Effective turrets<small>&nbsp;<ref name="turrets">'''Effective turrets''' is a measure of raw turrets modified by rate of fire or damage bonuses of the hulls as well as role bonuses.</ref></small>
+|- style="background-color: #222222;"
-| {{co|lightgreen|+22,2% more damage}}
+| Apoc. Navy
-| {{co|lightgreen|+9,4% more damage}}
+| Nightmare
-| {{co|lightgreen|+33,3% more damage}}
+| Paladin
-|-
+| Megathron
-| {{icon|tracking|24}} Tracking speed
+| Vindicator
-| {{co|lightgreen|+37,5% more tracking}}
+| Kronos
-| {{co|grey|Similar}}
+| Tempest Fleet
-| {{co|lightgreen|+37,5% more tracking}}
+| Machariel
-|-
+| Vargur
-| {{icon|range|24}} Turret falloff
+|-
-| {{co|grey|Similar}}
+| {{icon|turret new|24}} Raw DPS
-| {{co|lightgreen|+50% more falloff}}
+| {{co|crimson|940}}
-| {{co|grey|Similar}}
+| 1175
-|-
+| {{co|lightgreen|2815}}
-| [[image:Icon capacitor capacity.png|24px|link=]] Capacitor recharge<small>&nbsp;<ref name="cap">'''Peak recharge''' is a measure of capacitor capacity / capacitor recharge time * 2,5 (peak coefficient). See [[Capacitor_Recharge_Rate|capacitor recharge rate]] for more information.</ref></small>
+| {{co|crimson|1110}}
-| {{co|lightgreen|+14,3% capacitor recharge}}
+| 1310
-| {{co|lightgreen|+4,7% capacitor recharge}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|2689}}
-| {{co|lightgreen|+17,8% capacitor recharge}}
+| 1061
-|-
+| 1307
-| {{icon|shield|24}} Shield hit points
+| {{co|lightgreen|2786}}
-| {{co|lightgreen|+16,7% more shield hp}}
+|-
-| {{co|lightgreen|+16,5% more shield hp}}
+| {{icon|tracking|24}} Tracking Speed
-| {{co|lightgreen|+62,3% more shield hp}}
+| 5.28
-|-
+| 5.28
-| {{icon|sig|24}} Signature
+| {{co|crimson|3.99}} <ref name="paladin">The Paladin does not receive a hull bonus for tracking, however loading Imperial Navy Multifrequency bumps the tracking up to 5.7 while maintaining around 2200 DPS.</ref>
-| {{co|lightgreen|17,5% smaller signature}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|11.6}}
-| {{co|lightgreen|23,9% smaller signature}}
+| 7.96 <ref name="vindi">This statistic is slightly misleading as the Vindicators in fleet are often provided with remote tracking computers and sensor boosters from the logistics and booster pilots.</ref>
-| {{co|lightgreen|20,4% smaller signature}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|12.1}}
-|-
+| 5.27
-| {{icon|range|24}} Targeting range
+| 5.27
-| {{co|lightgreen|20,8% longer lock range}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|8.17}}
-| {{co|grey|Similar}}
+|-
-| {{co|lightgreen|37,1% longer lock range}}
+| {{icon|range|24}} Optimal / Falloff
-|-
+| 24.9km / 16.2km
-| [[image:icon_drones.png|24px|link=]] Drone capacity
+| 20.5km / 20.5km
-| {{co|crimson|-50 m3 drone bay}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|28km / 20.1km}}
-| {{co|lightgreen|+25 m3 drone bay}}
+| 5.17km / 16.2km
-| {{co|crimson|-150 m3 drone bay}}
+| 5.17km / 15.6km
-|-
+| {{co|lightgreen|6.99km / 36.1km}}
-| {{icon|sensor resolution|24}} Scan resolution
+| 3.9km / 30.4km
-| {{co|crimson|-9,1% scan resolution}}
+| 3.9km / 43.6km
-| {{co|lightgreen|+38,9% scan resolution}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|4.5km / 54.4km}}
-| {{co|crimson|-15,2% scan resolution}}
+|-
-|-
+| [[image:Icon capacitor capacity.png|24px|link=]] Capacitor Life
-| [[image:icon_warp_speed.png|24px|link=]] Warp speed
+| 20:39
-| {{co|grey|Same}}
+| {{co|crimson|7:43}}
-| {{co|lightgreen|+1 AU/s warp speed}}
+| 12:32
-| {{co|grey|Same}}
+| 20:14
-|-
+| {{co|lightgreen|Stable +3.41 GJ/s}}
-| {{icon|inertia|24}} Inertia
+| {{co|lightgreen|Stable +8.31 GJ/s}}
-| {{co|lightgreen|+29,7% more agile}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|Stable +14.5 GJ/s}}
-| {{co|lightgreen|+29,4% more agile}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|Stable +14.3 GJ/s}}
-| {{co|crimson|-18,0% less agile}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|Stable +17.9 GJ/s}}
 |-
-| [[image:icon_velocity.png|24px|link=]] Velocity<ref>A ship's '''velocity''' is unimportant in Vanguards, but valued in Assaults and Headquarters, which involve moving with microwarpdrives to anchor positions.</ref>
+| [[File:Icon armor plate.png|link=|24px]] Armor EHP
-| {{co|lightgreen|+14,7% faster}}
+| 46.7k
-| {{co|lightgreen|+71,3% faster}}
+| 40.2k
-| {{co|lightgreen|+52,0% faster}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|65.1k}}
+| 51.2k
+| {{co|crimson|38.9k}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|61.6k}}
+| 47.0k
+| 44.9k
+| {{co|lightgreen|73.4k}} <ref name="vargur">The prototype Vargur fit is shield tanked. The Armor EHP value is listed is the shield EHP of this fit..</ref>
+|-
+| {{icon|sensor resolution|24}} Scan Resolution
+| {{co|crimson|312 mm}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|584 mm}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|516 mm}}
+| {{co|crimson|248 mm}}
+| {{co|crimson|188 mm}} <ref name="vindi"/>
+| {{co|lightgreen|516 mm}}
+| {{co|crimson|396 mm}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|666 mm}}
+| {{co|crimson|371 mm}}
+|-
+| {{icon|sig|24}} Signature Radius
+| 388 m
+| 388 m
+| 420 m
+| 399 m
+| 428 m
+| 420 m
+| 374 m
+| 380 m
+| 380 m
+|-
+| [[image:icon_drones.png|24px|link=]] Drone Capacity
+| {{co|lightgreen|100{{m3}} }}
+| 75{{m3}}
+| 75{{m3}}
+| 75[[m3}}
+| {{co|lightgreen|125{{m3}} }}
+| {{co|lightgreen|125{{m3}} }}
+| {{co|lightgreen|100{{m3}} }}
+| {{co|lightgreen|125{{m3}} }}
+| 75{{m3}}
+|-
+| [[image:icon_velocity.png|24px|link=]] Warp Speed
+| 3.6 AU/s
+| 3.75 AU/s
+| 3.5 AU/s <ref name="marauder_warp">None of the Marauder fits have a hyperspatial rig so as to maintain compatibility with headquarters groups</ref>
+| 3.6 AU/s
+| 3.75 AU/s
+| 3.5 AU/s <ref name="marauder_warp"/>
+| 3.6 AU/s
+| 3.75 AU/s <ref name="mach">The Machariel fit is the only one which does not include a hyperspatial rig, as the hull is innately bonused for warp speed.</ref>
+| 3.5 AU/s <ref name="marauder_warp"/>
+|-
+| {{icon|money|24px}} Price
+| 640M
+| 1.87B
+| 4.61B
+| 555M
+| 3.24B
+| 4.69B
+| 758M
+| 1.46B
+| 4.38B
 |}
+<small><references/></small>
-<small><references/></small>
+== Fit progression ==
+{{Note box|As the new armor doctrine is thoroughly tested, fits here may change.}}
-= Fit Progression =
+For the most part, fit progression is really only relevant for high-end ships like the three pirate faction battleships and marauders mentioned above. Logistics ships use pretty much the same rigs, changing only a few modules based on their desired fit. Remember that upgrading from a regular battleship to a pirate faction battleship alone is a big upgrade and the best use of your ISK for the initial upgrade.
-For the most part, fit progression is really only relevant for high-end ships like the three pirate faction battleships mentioned above. Logistics ships use pretty much the same rigs, changing only a few modules based on their desired fit. Remember that upgrading from a regular battleship to a pirate faction battleship alone is a big upgrade and the best use of your ISK for the initial upgrade.
+The decision that has the most influence on the shape of your fit is your choice of rigs. That choice also heavily influences the amount of ISK you need to front to make the fit work. The examples below will follow our fitting principle of using rigs that are compatible with headquarters groups, and we suggest you strongly consider this when you fit your own ships. However, these are not the only way to make fits work, and if you only ever plan on running with the EVE University Incursion Community, you could consider a more aggressive choice of rigs (e.g. swapping a tank rig with a DPS rig).
-See [[Incursion fitting principles#Upgrade priorities|upgrade priorities]] for more information and remember that your options are highly limited by your [[Incursion fitting principles#Rigging choice|choice of rigs]]. That choice also heavily influences the amount of ISK you need to front to make the fit work. The examples below will use the more common setups, so will not include specialized fits such as the '''warp speed''' variant.
+=== Cheap ===
-== Cheap ==
+For a cheap initial fit, we will limit ourselves to Tech 1 rigs and Tech 2 tank modules, avoid faction and deadspace entirely. Here is how a Nightmare fit might look before adding any utility modules.
-If you're not entirely sure how you want to fit your ship in the end, the same principle that we follow to fit our [[Incursion fitting principles#Minimum setup|minimum fits]] can be applied to pirate faction ships as well. Practically you can fit a '''Vindicator''' more or less the same way you'd fit a [[Vanguard Incursion fits#Hyperion|Hyperion]]. The same goes for fitting a '''Machariel''' similar to how you fit a [[Vanguard Incursion fits#Maelstrom|Maelstrom]].
-Here's an example of a '''Nightmare''' fit according to our principles, with only a minor change to rigs since their increased stats make shield extender rigs superfluous.
 {{ShipFitting
 | ship=Nightmare
-| shipTypeID=17736
+| fitName= Incursions (Vanguards
-| fitName=Cheap setup (example)
+| fitID= Incursions (Vanguards
-| fitID=Cheap-setup-(example)
+| high1name=Mega Modal Pulse Laser I
+| high1typeID=7083
+| high2name=Mega Modal Pulse Laser I
+| high2typeID=7083
+| high3name=Mega Modal Pulse Laser I
+| high3typeID=7083
+| high4name=Mega Modal Pulse Laser I
+| high4typeID=7083
 | low1name=Damage Control II
 | low1typeID=2048
-| mid1name=Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
+| low2name=Multispectrum Energized Membrane II
-| mid1typeID=2281
+| low2typeID=11269
-| mid2name=Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
+| low3name=Multispectrum Energized Membrane II
-| mid2typeID=2281
+| low3typeID=11269
-| mid3name=EM Shield Hardener II
+| low4name=1600mm Steel Plates II
-| mid3typeID=2301
+| low4typeID=20353
-| rig1name=Large Thermal Shield Reinforcer I
+| rig1name=Large Explosive Armor Reinforcer I
-| rig1typeID=26082
+| rig1typeID=25888
-| rig2name=Large Energy Burst Aerator II
+| rig2name=Large Kinetic Armor Reinforcer I
-| rig2typeID=26380
+| rig2typeID=25890
-| low2name=open
+| rig3name=Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
-| low3name=open
+| rig3typeID=26068
-| low4name=open
-| low5name=open
-| low6name=open
-| mid4name=open
-| mid5name=open
-| mid6name=open
-| mid7name=open
-| high1name=open
-| high2name=open
-| high3name=open
-| high4name=open
-| high5name=open
-| high6name=open
-| rig3name=open
 | skills=
 | showSKILLS=N
-| notes=The '''Nightmare''' is often the only decent entry-ship for '''Amarr''' pilots.</li><li>Even using the standard setup the ship sports plenty of midslots allowing for a '''high number of''' [[Incursion fitting principles#Utility modules|utility modules]], four to be exact.
+| notes=In this fit, the use of Tech 2 Energized Membranes means that the resists fall slightly short of our target of 67%. To mitigate this, a 1600mm plate is included.
 | showNOTES=Y
 | difficulty=0
-| warsop=A
+| version=2024.2.4
-| warsopReason=
-| version=June 2020
 | showTOC=N
-| shipDNA=17736:2048;1:2281;2:2301;1:26082;1:26380;1::
+| alphacanuse=N
-| fleetup=
 }}
-== Effective ==
+=== Effective ===
-{{quote|... will free up an extra midslot.}}
+By upgrading our tank modules to the faction variants and upgrading our turrets and rigs to Tech 2, we gain a nice bump in damage and can forego the inclusion of a plate, freeing up a lowslot for a damage module. Here is a Vindicator fit demonstrating this:
-If you want to keep the cost of the fit down while still having some improvements, you could go halfway with the cheapest deadspace modules. The [[Incursion fitting principles#Thermal rig|advanced EM rig setup]] from the '''fitting principles''' page will free up an extra midslot.
-{{note|This fit changes the rig to a {{icon|em resist|22}}{{co|coral|Large EM Shield Reinforcer I}} and will not work with other resist rigs.}}
 {{ShipFitting
-| ship=Machariel
+| ship=Vindicator
-| shipTypeID=11738
+| fitName= Incursions (Vangards
-| fitName=Effective setup (example)
+| fitID= Incursions (Vangards
-| fitID=Optimal-setup-(example)
+| high1name=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
+| high1typeID=3186
+| high2name=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
+| high2typeID=3186
+| high3name=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
+| high3typeID=3186
+| high4name=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
+| high4typeID=3186
+| high5name=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
+| high5typeID=3186
+| high6name=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
+| high6typeID=3186
+| high7name=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
+| high7typeID=3186
+| high8name=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
+| high8typeID=3186
 | low1name=Damage Control II
 | low1typeID=2048
-| mid1name=Pithum C-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener
+| low2name=Imperial Navy Multispectrum Energized Membrane
-| mid1typeID=4349
+| low2typeID=15729
-| mid2name=Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
+| low3name=Imperial Navy Multispectrum Energized Membrane
-| mid2typeID=2281
+| low3typeID=15729
-| rig1name=Large EM Shield Reinforcer I
+| rig1name=Large Explosive Armor Reinforcer II
-| rig1typeID=26076
+| rig1typeID=26288
-| rig2name=Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
+| rig2name=Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
-| rig2typeID=26430
+| rig2typeID=26322
-| low2name=open
+| rig3name=Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator II
-| low3name=open
+| rig3typeID=26402
-| low4name=open
-| low5name=open
-| low6name=open
-| mid3name=open
-| mid4name=open
-| mid5name=open
-| mid6name=open
-| high1name=open
-| high2name=open
-| high3name=open
-| high4name=open
-| high5name=open
-| high6name=open
-| high7name=open
-| high8name=open
-| rig3name=open
 | skills=
 | showSKILLS=N
-| notes=With a cheap setup you'd use up 3 midslots for tank, this only uses two, giving you one extra midslot for [[Incursion fitting principles#Utility modules|utility modules]].</li><li>Increasing the tank for this fit is a bit limited, but you can either add a normal {{co|coral|Multispectrum Shield Hardener II}} module for assaults, or if you want to solidify your tank for headquarters, two {{co|coral|Pithum B-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardeners}}.
+| notes=Here, we meet the resist threshold, and have sufficient armor HP to avoid including a plate. The Vindicator has a different set of rigs as compared to the Nightmare, but the principles still hold true.
 | showNOTES=Y
 | difficulty=0
-| version=April 2020
+| version=2024.2.4
 | showTOC=N
-| shipDNA=17740:2048;1:4349;1:2281;1:26076;1:26430;1::
+| alphacanuse=N
-| fleetup=
 }}
-== Optimal ==
+=== Optimal ===
-{{quote|... gives you maximum damage and will free up two extra midslots.}}
+By using deadspace modules and faction damage controls, as well as Tech 2 rigs and turrets, we arrive at the optimal fit. These fits can sometimes be slightly undertanked as compared to a strict reading of our fitting principles. Though the tank is still perfectly within reason (the fit below meets 69% in all except thermal, where it only gets to 63.5%), we can get away with this through "DPS tank", as well as with a pilot broadcasting early and letting logi know over comms so that they can get on top of the incoming damage.
-If you're willing to spend a little bit more on your favourite cash-cow ship, you can take it one step further with one of the more costly deadspace hardeners. The [[Incursion fitting principles#Electromagnetic rig|advanced electromagnetic rig setup]] from the '''fitting principles''' page gives you maximum damage and will free up an extra midslot.
-Here's an example of a '''Vindicator''' fit according to that principle.
-{{note|This fit changes the rig to a {{icon|em resist|22}}{{co|coral|Large EM Shield Reinforcer I}} and will not work with other resist rigs.}}
 {{ShipFitting
-| ship=Vindicator
+| ship=Nightmare
-| shipTypeID=17740
+| fitName= Incursions (Vanguards
-| fitName=Optimal setup (example)
+| fitID= Incursions (Vanguards
-| fitID=Optimal-setup-(example)
+| high1name=Mega Pulse Laser II
-| low1name=Damage Control II
+| high1typeID=3057
-| low1typeID=2048
+| high2name=Mega Pulse Laser II
-| mid1name=Pithum B-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener
+| high2typeID=3057
-| mid1typeID=4348
+| high3name=Mega Pulse Laser II
-| rig1name=Large EM Shield Reinforcer I
+| high3typeID=3057
-| rig1typeID=26076
+| high4name=Mega Pulse Laser II
-| rig2name=Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
+| high4typeID=3057
-| rig2typeID=26394
+| low1name=Syndicate Damage Control
-| low2name=open
+| low1typeID=41201
-| low3name=open
+| low2name=Corpum A-Type Multispectrum Energized Membrane
-| low4name=open
+| low2typeID=18881
-| low5name=open
+| rig1name=Large Explosive Armor Reinforcer II
-| low6name=open
+| rig1typeID=26288
-| low7name=open
+| rig2name=Large Kinetic Armor Reinforcer II
-| mid2name=open
+| rig2typeID=26290
-| mid3name=open
+| rig3name=Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
-| mid4name=open
+| rig3typeID=26322
-| mid5name=open
-| high1name=open
-| high2name=open
-| high3name=open
-| high4name=open
-| high5name=open
-| high6name=open
-| high7name=open
-| high8name=open
-| rig3name=open
 | skills=
 | showSKILLS=N
-| notes=With a cheap setup you'd use up 3 midslots for tank, leaving only 2 midslots for [[Incursion fitting principles#Utility modules|utility modules]]. But since you're only using 1 midslot you now have room for two additional midslots.</li><li>Increasing the tank for this fit can be as cheap as adding a normal {{co|coral|Multispectrum Shield Hardener II}} module for assaults, or if you want to solidify your tank for headquarters, a second {{co|coral|Pithum B-Type}} or {{co|coral|Pithum A-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener}}.
+| notes=This fit has somewhat of a thermal hole, but reaches 69% or higher in every other area, and only uses two tank modules to do so.
 | showNOTES=Y
 | difficulty=0
-| version=June 2020
+| version=2024.2.4
 | showTOC=N
-| shipDNA=17740:2048;1:4348;1:2281;1:26076;1:26394;1::
+| alphacanuse=N
-| fleetup=
 }}
-= Faction and deadspace modules =
+== Faction and deadspace modules ==
-First of all, remember that getting a pirate faction hull is always going to give you better applied damage (and often many other advantages) compared to spending ISK on faction and deadspace modules. With the exception of the '''Federation Navy''' or '''Serpentis Stasis Webifier''' and '''tech two weapons''', it is recommended that you get a better hull long before you look into upgrading modules.
+First of all, remember that getting a pirate faction hull is always going to give you better applied damage (and often many other advantages) compared to spending ISK on faction and deadspace modules on a tech 1 battleship. With the exception of the '''Federation Navy''' or '''Serpentis Stasis Webifier''' and '''tech two weapons''', it is recommended that you get a better hull long before you look into upgrading modules.
 Consider the actual benefit you will get from upgrading a certain module. Getting a deadspace hardener is useful for most ships as it frees up a midslot. But even though a faction tracking computer or a sensor booster might make sense for public fleets built to compete, for our community that isn't going to be as worthwhile of an investment as we usually don't compete.
@@ Line 374: / Line 392: @@
 To put this into perspective you need to factor in [[stacking penalties]]. If you're just using one module to a given effect, it's easy to calculate and see the difference, but when you have more intricate combinations where things end up 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th in the stacking hierarchy, it might be a little harder to see what you get out of it.
-==== Module variants and price deviations ====
+==== Module variants and price deviation ====
 {|
-| valign="top" style="padding:0px;" | [[Image:Market.png|64px|link=]]
+| style="padding:0px;" | [[Image:Market.png|64px|link=]]
-| valign="top" style="padding-top:12px;" | When you're shopping for faction or deadspace modules, check all equivalent variants for price deviations. For example, the {{co|coral|Federation Navy Tracking Computer}} is identical in all but the name to the {{co|coral|Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer}} and their prices fluctuate over time, so use the [[Show Info and Compare]]-feature ingame to find potential alternatives and you might save millions.
+| style="padding-top:12px;" | When you're shopping for faction or deadspace modules, check all equivalent variants for price deviations. For example, the {{co|coral|Federation Navy Tracking Computer}} is identical in all but the name to the {{co|coral|Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer}} and their prices fluctuate over time, so use the [[Show Info and Compare]]-feature ingame to find potential alternatives and you might save millions.
 |}
+== Injecting implants ==
-= Injecting implants =
 There are plenty of hardwiring implants that are useful for incursion runners, with effects ranging from damage projection (tracking, damage or rate of fire) to fitting/support related effects (increased capacitor, powergrid or CPU) and warp speed. The bonuses from implants do not suffer stacking penalties, thus even the +3% variants are quite potent and cheap enough to use even while at war due to the low risk of actually losing your pod.
@@ Line 391: / Line 408: @@
-= Skill progression =
+== Skill progression ==
 For the most part skill progression is as simple as just topping off the '''minimum''' skills you needed to get ready and perhaps train a couple of new skills to be able to use a different set of drones or a situational module. There are however some differences between skill progression for logistics and damage dealers.
 == Logistics ==
@@ Line 398: / Line 415: @@
 See [[Preparing for Incursions#Minimum skills for logistics|minimum]] and [[Preparing for Incursions#Recommended skills for logistics|recommended skills]] for a list of specific skills to train early on to quickly move into the '''recommended''' and '''advanced''' logistics fits.
 {|
-| valign="top" | [[File:icon_implant_hardwiring.png|64px|link=]]
+| [[File:icon_implant_hardwiring.png|64px|link=]]
 | {{co|coral|Implants}}
@@ Line 409: / Line 426: @@
 See [[Preparing for Incursions#Minimum skills for damage dealers|minimum]] and [[Preparing for Incursions#Recommended skills for damage dealers|recommended skills]] for a list of specific skills to train early on.
 {|
-| valign="top" | {{icon|turret|64}}
+| {{icon|turret|64}}
 | {{co|coral|Tech two weapons}}
 As soon as you have the skills for it, toss away those old meta turrets and replace them with your tech two turrets of choice. All ships, tech one battleships as well as pirate faction battleships benefit greatly from the much more powerful tech two turrets (and their advanced ammunition).
 |-
-| valign="top" | {{icon|drones|64}}
+| {{icon|drones|64}}
 | {{co|coral|Improved drone skills}}
 There are several drone-related skills to help improve your performance. First improving drone control range, then general '''drone support''' and '''specialization''' skills. Later on you might train '''heavy drones''' for headquarter sites or '''sentry drones''' for vanguard sites.
 |-
-| valign="top" | [[File:Icon remote capacitor transmitter i.png|64px]]
+| [[File:Icon remote capacitor transmitter i.png|64px]]
 | {{co|coral|Capacitor management}}
 Some skills improve basic capacitor regeneration, others reduce capacitor usage instead. Some ships will have little to no issues with cap, while others are much more subject to it and require very high skills. Implants play a small role in this as well, so your mileage will vary here depending on your skills, ship, fit and implants.
 |-
-| valign="top" | {{icon|cpu|64px}}
+| {{icon|cpu|64px}}
 | {{co|coral|Fitting skills}}
@@ Line 430: / Line 447: @@
 |}
-= Planning ahead =
+== Planning ahead ==
-Unless you are already heavily invested into a certain race or weapon system, it might be a good idea to think of which logistics ship, strategic cruiser or pirate faction battleship you'll want in the end, rather than what your first incursion ship should be. Don't worry too much about it though, as the race specific ship and weapon skills you train for the minimum skills only amount to a little over five days worth of training. So changing your mind along the way wouldn't be much of a detour.
+Unless you are already heavily invested into a certain race or weapon system, it might be a good idea to think of which ship (or ships) you'll want in the end, rather than what your first incursion ship should be. Don't worry too much about it though, as the race specific ship and weapon skills you train for the minimum skills only amount to a little over five days worth of training. So changing your mind along the way wouldn't be much of a detour.
-Depending on the race, training for strategic cruisers will make quite some progress towards being able to fly logistics as well, or the other way around if your goal is to fly logistics. That said, most strategic cruisers pale in comparison to the pirate faction battleships who remain the epitome of incursion boats.
 You should also consider secondary value of whatever you train, perhaps you can find an end-of-the-line ship that not only furthers your goals for incursions but other goals as well given the skills you'll end up training for it. If you already know that you like smaller ships, or have plans for diving into a wormhole in the future, it would make much more sense training into a strategic cruiser than a pirate faction battleship.
@@ Line 440: / Line 455: @@
-[[Category:Incursions]][[Category:Fittings]]
+<!--[[Category:Incursions]]
+[[Category:Fittings]]-->